Cycling in Waterloo Region

[danbrotherston]

Diane Freeman retweets a lot of my stuff (?!) so I asked her if she could help take care of it.  Her response:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">You bet! Once it is fully finished and signed <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/zerotolerance?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#zerotolerance</a>. UpTown has been so devastated by the construction that By-law is being kind for the holiday shoppers.</p>&mdash; Diane Freeman (@DianeLFreeman) <a href="https://twitter.com/DianeLFreeman/status/945025460538191872?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 24, 2017</a></blockquote>

...I don't even know what to say.

Kind to a small number of automobile drivers, not so kind to cyclists. Admittedly the number of cyclists is probably also small, but one parking user of the space uses much more space for much more time than a single bicycling user of the space.

I was thinking about this in the context of the Toronto King St. pilot project. It occurred to me that removing parking seems like a big move, but that is only because it is such an inefficient use of space. Moving back to Uptown, how many parking spaces have (supposedly, pending enforcement) been removed? I believe I recall that it was under 30 or so. So assuming people tend to park for a couple of hours each during a 12-hour portion of the day, we’ve removed maybe 200 people from parking each day. What would 200 bicycle riders per day look like? Not even noticeable — so one rider every few minutes are getting more use out of the former parking spaces than the people parking were.

It's not even "removing", it's just "moving", there's plenty of parking in uptown, 100% guaranteed there are 30 empty spaces at any given time, all these people need to do is go to one of the parking lots, then walk 3-4 minutes to their destination.  There was a rather loud rant about how such an imposition would make it impossible for anyone to visit uptown, which is so ridiculous on face, it doesn't need rebuttal, but there are plenty of people with that attitude (these same people I have no doubt instead parked a 10 minute walk away from their destination at Conestoga Mall this winter, but I digress).

[ijmorlan]

Totally agree. Now that they’ve permitted bad habits to start, I won’t be surprised if they have to tow, probably a lot, to fix it. When the University of Waterloo changed the de facto rules for the road connecting the Math and Computer loading dock to Ring Road to match the de jure rules by enforcing the No Parking, it took months of several-times-daily towing to really stop the parking along there. I remember watching one tow truck after another take the cars away one at a time, not just once but on several occasions.

When did they start enforcing that? I can remember getting a ticket for parking there about 20 years ago. So did they stop and then restart enforcing it in the meantime, or are you talking about long ago?

I don’t know the full history. I remember that it was normal for there to be a line of cars parked along the north side of that access road. Once I wanted to park, noticed the No Parking signs, thought about it a bit, then parked. I figured since there were always cars there and I was only there for a little while I’d probably be fine. And sure enough, no problem.

Then at some point they must have decided they really wanted it cleared out. So they put up some additional signs and got the tow trucks going. They would just go down the whole road towing every vehicle. What I found interesting was that it took a long time before they typically didn’t have anything to do. Once people were in the habit of parking there, they weren’t dissuaded by nobody else being there.

So I can’t say they ever didn’t enforce at all, but at one time it was little enough that it was normal to see cars parked. Perhaps at one time they just swung by a couple of times a day and ticketed only; UW tickets aren’t even very expensive so I can imagine somebody not caring if they occasionally get one. Now I think they have somebody constantly roving around campus enforcing parking, so I suspect every location gets covered several times a day, and I assume they will tow anything that is considered a fire route (i.e., it’s not just that you haven’t paid to park in a legitimate spot).

What’s funny is I actually think UW doesn’t have enough short term close parking. They have very cheap parking for employees who park all day every day, and reasonable to moderately expensive parking for people who park all day or a portion of a day occasionally, but almost nothing for people who just need 30 minutes or an hour and would benefit by being closer to their destination. If it were up to me I’d just get rid of the parking pass system and the seniority system for deciding who gets to use which lots and use an SFPark-like system everywhere. Desireable locations and times would simply be expensive, with no special rules about who gets to park where and when.

[ijmorlan]

Kind to a small number of automobile drivers, not so kind to cyclists. Admittedly the number of cyclists is probably also small, but one parking user of the space uses much more space for much more time than a single bicycling user of the space.

I was thinking about this in the context of the Toronto King St. pilot project. It occurred to me that removing parking seems like a big move, but that is only because it is such an inefficient use of space. Moving back to Uptown, how many parking spaces have (supposedly, pending enforcement) been removed? I believe I recall that it was under 30 or so. So assuming people tend to park for a couple of hours each during a 12-hour portion of the day, we’ve removed maybe 200 people from parking each day. What would 200 bicycle riders per day look like? Not even noticeable — so one rider every few minutes are getting more use out of the former parking spaces than the people parking were.

It's not even "removing", it's just "moving", there's plenty of parking in uptown, 100% guaranteed there are 30 empty spaces at any given time, all these people need to do is go to one of the parking lots, then walk 3-4 minutes to their destination.  There was a rather loud rant about how such an imposition would make it impossible for anyone to visit uptown, which is so ridiculous on face, it doesn't need rebuttal, but there are plenty of people with that attitude (these same people I have no doubt instead parked a 10 minute walk away from their destination at Conestoga Mall this winter, but I digress).

Good point. With the new lots recently opened there probably hasn’t been any net loss, just moving a small number of spaces a bit further away.

I read a strange article about Toronto’s King St. from a merchant who claims the place has basically turned into a ghost town. I don’t see how eliminating a tiny number of parking spaces and a small fraction of the through traffic from the street can have as bad an effect as he claims on business. On the other hand I’m concerned that maybe there is some non-obvious linkage that actually is leading to a problem. On one level his article makes no sense. For example, he claims that walk-in traffic is off. But walk-in traffic is pedestrian traffic, and the street is a better pedestrian street than before. But presumably he’s not making up his customer counts, so if those are down I’m worried. Maybe it just feels quieter because there isn’t as much traffic noise, and the space feels more open because there isn’t a line of parked cars.

[plam]

I read a strange article about Toronto’s King St. from a merchant who claims the place has basically turned into a ghost town. I don’t see how eliminating a tiny number of parking spaces and a small fraction of the through traffic from the street can have as bad an effect as he claims on business. On the other hand I’m concerned that maybe there is some non-obvious linkage that actually is leading to a problem. On one level his article makes no sense. For example, he claims that walk-in traffic is off. But walk-in traffic is pedestrian traffic, and the street is a better pedestrian street than before. But presumably he’s not making up his customer counts, so if those are down I’m worried. Maybe it just feels quieter because there isn’t as much traffic noise, and the space feels more open because there isn’t a line of parked cars.

Was he the same guy who complains about everything? I thought I saw that. Might be good to Google his name for past press coverage.

Fortunately, in Toronto, they are also tracking the volume of business that restaurants are doing, so they can actually verify sky-is-falling claims. I was also on King St a few days ago and it does seem a lot less full of cars but not necessarily of people (which I think is great).

I do always cycle to the University of Waterloo because it's kind of annoying to park (not close and also costs money). I wouldn't expend my political capital on reforming the parking system.

[tomh009]

What’s funny is I actually think UW doesn’t have enough short term close parking. They have very cheap parking for employees who park all day every day, and reasonable to moderately expensive parking for people who park all day or a portion of a day occasionally, but almost nothing for people who just need 30 minutes or an hour and would benefit by being closer to their destination.

Needles Hall? Or is that no longer an hourly lot? (It's admittedly very small anyway.)

[danbrotherston]

I read a strange article about Toronto’s King St. from a merchant who claims the place has basically turned into a ghost town. I don’t see how eliminating a tiny number of parking spaces and a small fraction of the through traffic from the street can have as bad an effect as he claims on business. On the other hand I’m concerned that maybe there is some non-obvious linkage that actually is leading to a problem. On one level his article makes no sense. For example, he claims that walk-in traffic is off. But walk-in traffic is pedestrian traffic, and the street is a better pedestrian street than before. But presumably he’s not making up his customer counts, so if those are down I’m worried. Maybe it just feels quieter because there isn’t as much traffic noise, and the space feels more open because there isn’t a line of parked cars.

Was he the same guy who complains about everything? I thought I saw that. Might be good to Google his name for past press coverage.

Fortunately, in Toronto, they are also tracking the volume of business that restaurants are doing, so they can actually verify sky-is-falling claims. I was also on King St a few days ago and it does seem a lot less full of cars but not necessarily of people (which I think is great).

It's a good bet it was, if this was read on some news article. That particular proprietor has a 20 year history of "things killing his business"...starting all the way back on the ban on smoking.

I do always cycle to the University of Waterloo because it's kind of annoying to park (not close and also costs money). I wouldn't expend my political capital on reforming the parking system.

It's amazing how small a pain point it takes to convert people to other means of transportation. Sure with the city had the political will to inconvenience people very slightly.

[ijmorlan]

I read a strange article about Toronto’s King St. from a merchant who claims the place has basically turned into a ghost town. I don’t see how eliminating a tiny number of parking spaces and a small fraction of the through traffic from the street can have as bad an effect as he claims on business. On the other hand I’m concerned that maybe there is some non-obvious linkage that actually is leading to a problem. On one level his article makes no sense. For example, he claims that walk-in traffic is off. But walk-in traffic is pedestrian traffic, and the street is a better pedestrian street than before. But presumably he’s not making up his customer counts, so if those are down I’m worried. Maybe it just feels quieter because there isn’t as much traffic noise, and the space feels more open because there isn’t a line of parked cars.

Was he the same guy who complains about everything? I thought I saw that. Might be good to Google his name for past press coverage.

Fortunately, in Toronto, they are also tracking the volume of business that restaurants are doing, so they can actually verify sky-is-falling claims. I was also on King St a few days ago and it does seem a lot less full of cars but not necessarily of people (which I think is great).

I do always cycle to the University of Waterloo because it's kind of annoying to park (not close and also costs money). I wouldn't expend my political capital on reforming the parking system.

The King St. article: https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contribu...iness.html

I haven’t looked up the author’s name elsewhere.

As to UW parking, I don’t have any political capital for something like that, and even if I did, I agree that would be a bit of a third rail. All those people who drive to work, some of whom waited years for their preferred lot, are not about to mix with the hoi-polloi who are either students or only need parking occasionally. Plus they don’t seem to understand what an amazing deal they have.

[ijmorlan]

What’s funny is I actually think UW doesn’t have enough short term close parking. They have very cheap parking for employees who park all day every day, and reasonable to moderately expensive parking for people who park all day or a portion of a day occasionally, but almost nothing for people who just need 30 minutes or an hour and would benefit by being closer to their destination.

Needles Hall?  Or is that no longer an hourly lot?  (It's admittedly very small anyway.)

Yes, it’s still available as an hourly lot. But what if I need to pop into just about any other building on campus for an appointment or to pick something up? I understand why parking is not available for attending class or for working there all day: it’s physically impossible to provide close parking other than at massive cost. But a few short term spots could be tucked in here and there. Or imagine if there were meters all the way around Ring Road. OK, maybe that would be too many, I don’t know.

Also, their policy doesn’t take into account demand. The lots cost the same almost all the time, whether they’re full (i.e., underpriced) or completely empty. So there is no incentive to move trips that can move to quiet times. I don’t object to paying for parking in general, because I understand the rationing effect of pricing. But I do object to paying (significantly) to park in a completely empty lot that would need to be there and maintained anyway for the busy times.

[Canard]

Thanks to the City of Kitchener for stepping it up, and to the City of Waterloo for continuing to keep our trail network relatively clear! It was a beautiful morning to be out.

   

Still, I think I made a decision on my ride this morning... Has anyone here got a fat bike? Just curious on your experience.

I watched this video yesterday grinning from ear to ear:



There are a bunch of trails I ride in the summer that I know are unmaintained in the winter, that would be absolutely perfect for this style of bike. I don’t know if I can wait until the Spring Toronto Bike Show in March...

[jamincan]

I know last year that people were riding the trails at the Hydrocut with fat bikes. Have you found your way there or the Puslinch Tract yet? Another great place to explore is the Columbia Forest.

[Jonny]

It's not even "removing", it's just "moving", there's plenty of parking in uptown, 100% guaranteed there are 30 empty spaces at any given time, all these people need to do is go to one of the parking lots, then walk 3-4 minutes to their destination.  There was a rather loud rant about how such an imposition would make it impossible for anyone to visit uptown, which is so ridiculous on face, it doesn't need rebuttal, but there are plenty of people with that attitude (these same people I have no doubt instead parked a 10 minute walk away from their destination at Conestoga Mall this winter, but I digress).

I've been meaning to make a map comparing the walking distance from the parking lots/garages in Uptown and Downtown compared to mall parking. Maybe it's the climate control, or the fact that you're 'in the mall' sooner, but there's definitely a bias towards mall parking vs more urban parking. For example, it's about 300m from the centre court at Conestoga to the middle of the parking by the Bay, which is the same as the straight line distance from the parking behind the Uptown LCBO to King & Erb, or from Kitchener City Hall to King & Water.

[Canard]

I know last year that people were riding the trails at the Hydrocut with fat bikes. Have you found your way there or the Puslinch Tract yet? Another great place to explore is the Columbia Forest.

I haven't. I actually work really close to the Puslinch Tract, and at least 4 of my coworkers (at my small company!) keep encouraging me to go check it out. I don't think my bike is built for it, though.

As for the hydrocut, I'm kind of scared to go there - I just have a feeling it's all pro people ripping around who know what they're doing, and I'd just get in everyone's way.

[jamincan]

You're probably right with regard to your hybrid, but I took my cx bike to the Puslinch tract recently and was fine on the easier bits. It became more of an issue on some of the hillier sections with lots of tree roots where I didn't have the gearing or the right tires. You'd certainly be fine with a fat bike, though. And I wouldn't worry about other riders. The hydrocut trails are all signed for one direction of travel, so you don't have to worry about someone approaching you from in front. If they come up on you from behind, just pull over to let them by and offer a friendly hello.

[Canard]

Doesn't a CX bike usually have no suspension and maybe narrower tires? One of my coworkers rides (what I believe is considered) a CX bike, and it looks just like my hybrid except it has drop handlebars like a road bike, and no suspension...

[tomh009]

Back some years ago, mountain bukes didn't have suspensions, either (I still happily ride my "classic" no-suspension MTB) so does the (lack of a) suspension really define an MTB?