ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[jeffster]

Near miss today with a pedestrian and an Ion. Pedestrian was running against the red light, cross several lanes of traffic then right in front of the Ion. If something had happened, I at least have a dash cam that would have been great evidence.

Unsure why so many have a death wish.

[danbrotherston]

Near miss today with a pedestrian and an Ion. Pedestrian was running against the red light, cross several lanes of traffic then right in front of the Ion. If something had happened, I at least have a dash cam that would have been great evidence.

Unsure why so many have a death wish.

Nobody (who isn't suicidal) has a death wish...but many people do have appointments and other things that they need to get too, and other things that are occupying their minds.

This is obviously the same for drivers, no driver (well, very few) intend to hit and injure people. They are just human and have other things going on.  The difference is when a driver screws up, it's often someone else who dies. This is why I wish to hold drivers to a higher standard, even though they have all the same things going on in their lives.

That being said, I watch the train out my window, near misses are an hourly occurrence or so, even within the limited vantage point I have.

[Bytor]

And the station would have been closer to the buildings at Fallowfield, and Homer Watson.

Fallowfield is not going to work like you think.



The tower nearest Block Line is still a 7 minute walk to the nearest corner, putting the furthest tower a 10 minute walk away, and that's assuming there are reasonable entrances on the backsides of them. The near edge Fallowfield is a and 8-9 minute walk, and the intersection of Fallowfield and Joshua is a 10-11 minute walk, effectively beyond the catchment area.

By making people trek up and down these stairs or ramps for access to this alternate station, that distance to the nearest tower becomes an 8 minute walk to that nearest tower, or a 9-10 minute just to get to the near edge of Fallowfield Dr and 11-12 minutes to Joshua, definitely outside the catchment area. You would not be adding anybody from Fallowfield to the catchment area that is not already in it.

Homer Watson is currently a 11 minute walk from the Station, so it isn't even inside the catchment area to begin with, and the alternate station location will similarly make it further away by walking distance

So all you are doing by putting the station down in the little valley beside the track making the trek longer for everybody within the current station catchment area without expanding the catchment area to any new residents or employers.

You've made the station less useful to everybody who lives or works near by, reducing the effective catchment area, all for making the total end-to-end trip time a couple minutes shorter.

As for "the work necessary"...this is the same work that's needed at every single grade separated station everywhere in the world.

It is still extra work here, regardless of whether it's been done elsewhere or not. And extra work costs extra money. In this case for a demonstrable decrease in station utility. Spend more to make it worse.

I will be the first one to argue for ground level stations, they do provide better integration into the pedestrian realm, but in this instance, you're looking at a savings of 4-6 minutes travel time, plus a better street level realm (the current Courtland route is utter trash--partly because of the LRT routing), plus a trade off of better connections to some places, and worse connections to other places, seems like a very strong win.

As the map shows, you don't actually get better placement for anybody when you look at the actual distance a pedestrian would have to walk.

Also, I question some of your numbers, the track in question is only 74 meters from the current station access (remember, street level design is trash), and the bridge pier is only 65 meters. And even if AODA ramps required a switchback (which they don't have, too, they could be accessed by elevator instead) most grade separated stations also have stairs which can be much shorter.  So you're really looking at a 65-70 meter further walk, plus stairs, and again, that's added to the Courtland side, but subtracted from the Fallowfield side.

Again, see attached map.

[jamincan]

This is all speculative, but if they were doing a grade-separated station below Block Line, surely they'd just do stairs and elevators directly from the bridge?

[danbrotherston]

This is all speculative, but if they were doing a grade-separated station below Block Line, surely they'd just do stairs and elevators directly from the bridge?

That certainly would be my assumption, depending on how the grade worked out.

[KevinL]

It would be very strange having the only grade separated station on the line be in such a (currently) underdeveloped area. If they were going to similar expense to put in others I could understand, but then you have the budget increasing even more, which at the time would have killed the project.

I do have to wonder if a more gentle access to the rail corridor behind Graybar, rather than going along Hayward, would have made the curves less severe.

[neonjoe]

I’m guessing that keeping it by the road maximized the developable land available for projects like Vierra Village etc. A diagonal sliver limits what can be built, although it’s been vacant forever.
I’m really of the opinion that rail regulations and ownership of those yards probably limited the choices here.

[danbrotherston]

I’m guessing that keeping it by the road maximized the developable land available for projects like Vierra Village etc. A diagonal sliver limits what can be built, although it’s been vacant forever.
I’m really of the opinion that rail regulations and ownership of those yards probably limited the choices here.

I have zero doubt that cost was the main driver here. They probably had the right of way to squeeze it in along Courtland. In my opinion it would have been worth the cost to do it right, but obviously I have not done the business case for that.

[jeffster]

Fallowfield is not going to work like you think.

--snip--

Again, see attached map.

Really good summary. I had a hard time visualizing how this would have worked had it been down in the yards, but it would have been a hot mess either way, and not pedestrian friendly at all. My issue that I saw, apart from having to navigate a lot of stair, is that it would not have had a visual presence from the street, which would have made it a security risk for Ion users. Not that you can't be mugged at any of the current stops, but at least you have somewhere to go, and you can be seen.

[danbrotherston]

Fallowfield is not going to work like you think.

--snip--

Again, see attached map.

Really good summary. I had a hard time visualizing how this would have worked had it been down in the yards, but it would have been a hot mess either way, and not pedestrian friendly at all. My issue that I saw, apart from having to navigate a lot of stair, is that it would not have had a visual presence from the street, which would have made it a security risk for Ion users. Not that you can't be mugged at any of the current stops, but at least you have somewhere to go, and you can be seen.

I guess that's why no subway station in the world is a success....

Honestly, this is ridiculous, grade separated stations are expensive, but in no way impossible or difficult to do well. Obviously also possible to do poorly, as are at grade stations, the station at Block Line being an excellent example (it's terrible as is, utterly idiotic), and ironic that you bring up social safety given that the alignment on Block Line has probably the most dangerous situation in the city.

It's bizarre to be having this discussion, one venue over you'll find people explaining how at grade transit is always garbage. I've not taken the extreme view in either direction, instead basing my opinion on context. This bridge is already grade separated, the context leads to a grade separated station, nothing else.

[danbrotherston]

And the station would have been closer to the buildings at Fallowfield, and Homer Watson.

Fallowfield is not going to work like you think.



The tower nearest Block Line is still a 7 minute walk to the nearest corner, putting the furthest tower a 10 minute walk away, and that's assuming there are reasonable entrances on the backsides of them. The near edge Fallowfield is a and 8-9 minute walk, and the intersection of Fallowfield and Joshua is a 10-11 minute walk, effectively beyond the catchment area.

By making people trek up and down these stairs or ramps for access to this alternate station, that distance to the nearest tower becomes an 8 minute walk to that nearest tower, or a 9-10 minute just to get to the near edge of Fallowfield Dr and 11-12 minutes to Joshua, definitely outside the catchment area. You would not be adding anybody from Fallowfield to the catchment area that is not already in it.

Homer Watson is currently a 11 minute walk from the Station, so it isn't even inside the catchment area to begin with, and the alternate station location will similarly make it further away by walking distance

So all you are doing by putting the station down in the little valley beside the track making the trek longer for everybody within the current station catchment area without expanding the catchment area to any new residents or employers.

You've made the station less useful to everybody who lives or works near by, reducing the effective catchment area, all for making the total end-to-end trip time a couple minutes shorter.

As for "the work necessary"...this is the same work that's needed at every single grade separated station everywhere in the world.

It is still extra work here, regardless of whether it's been done elsewhere or not. And extra work costs extra money. In this case for a demonstrable decrease in station utility. Spend more to make it worse.

I will be the first one to argue for ground level stations, they do provide better integration into the pedestrian realm, but in this instance, you're looking at a savings of 4-6 minutes travel time, plus a better street level realm (the current Courtland route is utter trash--partly because of the LRT routing), plus a trade off of better connections to some places, and worse connections to other places, seems like a very strong win.

As the map shows, you don't actually get better placement for anybody when you look at the actual distance a pedestrian would have to walk.

Also, I question some of your numbers, the track in question is only 74 meters from the current station access (remember, street level design is trash), and the bridge pier is only 65 meters. And even if AODA ramps required a switchback (which they don't have, too, they could be accessed by elevator instead) most grade separated stations also have stairs which can be much shorter.  So you're really looking at a 65-70 meter further walk, plus stairs, and again, that's added to the Courtland side, but subtracted from the Fallowfield side.

Again, see attached map.

Your attached map is contrived and bizarre...your stairs are double or triple the length needed, and there is no reason for the station access to be at Courtland, it would be accessed directly from Block Line obviously. I have no idea why you would suggest this arrangement, it really would be bizarre.

Also:

"In this case for a demonstrable decrease in station utility. Spend more to make it worse."

I have been very clear about what the benefits are...we'd be seeing a 3-5 minute decrease in transit times. That's up to a 10% improvement on the entire line, and for shorter trips we are looking at a huge improvement. 

This station does not exist in isolation.

[danbrotherston]

   

For some context, I grabbed a sat photo, then copied the exact station platform under the bridge at the bridge pier...then I copied stairways from the Cooksville GO Station, where the stairway reaches the third floor of the parking garage. This is the maximum possible space a stairway would need, different configurations and lower heights could shrink and move this stairway as needed. You could have access from both sides of the bridge, and also an elevator for accessibility. It takes only a few dozen seconds to climb these stairs. The platform could be widened as needed to accomodate these features. The CP line under the bridge would need to be moved, but there is quite a bit of unused space there between the tracks.  And the Fallowfield buildings could be less than a 400 meter walk from the station.

[jeffster]

Really good summary. I had a hard time visualizing how this would have worked had it been down in the yards, but it would have been a hot mess either way, and not pedestrian friendly at all. My issue that I saw, apart from having to navigate a lot of stair, is that it would not have had a visual presence from the street, which would have made it a security risk for Ion users. Not that you can't be mugged at any of the current stops, but at least you have somewhere to go, and you can be seen.

I guess that's why no subway station in the world is a success....

Honestly, this is ridiculous, grade separated stations are expensive, but in no way impossible or difficult to do well. Obviously also possible to do poorly, as are at grade stations, the station at Block Line being an excellent example (it's terrible as is, utterly idiotic), and ironic that you bring up social safety given that the alignment on Block Line has probably the most dangerous situation in the city.

It's bizarre to be having this discussion, one venue over you'll find people explaining how at grade transit is always garbage. I've not taken the extreme view in either direction, instead basing my opinion on context. This bridge is already grade separated, the context leads to a grade separated station, nothing else.

Maybe you have never spent any time in Toronto, or any subway station for that matter, but two big differences: 1) Subway stations tend to be busy, even at slow times. The presence of other people is a deterrent. This isn't the case for Ion much past 8 or 9 PM. I know this because I have lived in Toronto, and I have used the Ion. One is always busy, one isn't. 2) There tends to be staff, security or police at subway stations. This doesn't seem to be the case for the Ion, as our stops are really no different than bus stops.

Putting the station down in the yards not only would have been more expensive but also not friendly at all for users. It would have been further for everyone to use. AODA compliance would have been a nightmare, not only would you need functioning elevators, you'd also need a ramp as back-up. Hindsight also suggests that it may have been a risk, with people taking shortcuts and cutting holes in fences, or by-passing fences that would need to have been built to keep people off of the yard tracks. While I have only seen minimal activity in the yards, it is there, and some idiot is bound to be run over by a slow moving train.

You do know that anyone that wanted to use the Ion from Homer Watson or Fallowfield area would have had to cross the bridge anyway, then backtrack toward Homer Watson and down stairs, a ramp, or an elevator. Not sure how you figured it would be closer to them.

It's almost like you didn't do any research on this.

[ijmorlan]

AODA compliance would have been a nightmare, not only would you need functioning elevators, you'd also need a ramp as back-up.

Cite please. I don’t believe there are more than a couple of Toronto subway stations where one can reach the platforms in a wheelchair without using a required elevator (interesting trivia question: which one or ones?); ramps are not provided as a backup.

Hindsight also suggests that it may have been a risk, with people taking shortcuts and cutting holes in fences, or by-passing fences that would need to have been built to keep people off of the yard tracks. While I have only seen minimal activity in the yards, it is there, and some idiot is bound to be run over by a slow moving train.

Where would these hypothetical trespassers be going? A quick look at the map suggests to me that a combination of no destination with normal fencing would mean an almost total absence of trespassing.

[ijmorlan]

You do know that anyone that wanted to use the Ion from Homer Watson or Fallowfield area would have had to cross the bridge anyway, then backtrack toward Homer Watson and down stairs, a ramp, or an elevator. Not sure how you figured it would be closer to them.

No, the idea, which I think Dan communicated reasonably clearly, is that the stairs would connect to the bridge. So those who currently cross the bridge to reach the station would cross to a point immediately above the station platform and then take stairs from there down to the platform; people who currently don’t need to cross the bridge would start crossing but before going very far would reach the stairs and go down.

A quick look at photos seems to suggest the amount of vertical separation would be less than almost any Toronto subway station because usually one goes down one long level to a concourse level and then down further to reach platform level; here the platform would be at a level comparable to subway concourse level in a not-very-deep station.