ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[danbrotherston]

Forever is a rather long time, and I do expect we'll see something new yet. But this type of system is not plug-and-play, so, even if contracts allow, I don't think we could do a switch to a different supplier quickly. But I really don't know the internals of this.

User Experience can be updated to be more cohesive. Definitely should have started the system with the cardholders, and the platform fair validators definitely should have been more reliable. But overall the system is working fairly well. It certainly isn't having as many issues as the TTC has had with Presto.

I am suggesting a complete replacement of the provider. Yes, this would not be simple.

We are absolutely having far far more issues than TTC did with presto. They have had only one or two main issues. Where as we have had virtually every part of the system completely broken. Payment doesn't work, the website is garbage, the platform machines are garbage, the user interfaces for all these things are junk. The on bus system is too slow for people paying with cash.

About the only thing that I haven't heard major issues with is the onboard farecard fare-payment on buses, which, ironically, is the main issue Presto had on TTC.

[taylortbb]

We are absolutely having far far more issues than TTC did with presto. They have had only one or two main issues. Where as we have had virtually every part of the system completely broken. Payment doesn't work, the website is garbage, the platform machines are garbage, the user interfaces for all these things are junk. The on bus system is too slow for people paying with cash.

Those are all issues that Presto had too. The Presto website is now, more than a decade later, not garbage. But it definitely started that way. TVMs not working, validators not working, etc are all problems that have happened with every Presto rollout. The only that hasn't is cash fares, and that's because Presto doesn't support cash fares, requiring agencies to instead run totally parallel cash payment systems with incompatible transfers. Which has the effect of making ridership and transfer tracking far more difficult, or impossible, for agencies using Presto.

Presto uses much of the same equipment we do, just with different software. If we're having hardware failures then Presto would have too.

[danbrotherston]

We are absolutely having far far more issues than TTC did with presto. They have had only one or two main issues. Where as we have had virtually every part of the system completely broken. Payment doesn't work, the website is garbage, the platform machines are garbage, the user interfaces for all these things are junk. The on bus system is too slow for people paying with cash.

Those are all issues that Presto had too. The Presto website is now, more than a decade later, not garbage. But it definitely started that way. TVMs not working, validators not working, etc are all problems that have happened with every Presto rollout. The only that hasn't is cash fares, and that's because Presto doesn't support cash fares, requiring agencies to instead run totally parallel cash payment systems with incompatible transfers. Which has the effect of making ridership and transfer tracking far more difficult, or impossible, for agencies using Presto.

Presto uses much of the same equipment we do, just with different software. If we're having hardware failures then Presto would have too.

Maybe, but none of those issues applied to TTC adopting Presto which only happened after those issues were ironed out, nor would they have applied to us. I'd have preferred if we had bought a system that had those issues fixed.  I don't want to wait another 10 years for this bullshit to get fixed in our system.  It is absurd, that with a completely standard system, we were unable to buy a working off the shelf solution, whether presto, or whatever.

[tomh009]

As I recall, Presto's fare structure did not have the flexibility that the region wanted. But I don't remember the details ...

[bgb_ca]

Those are all issues that Presto had too. The Presto website is now, more than a decade later, not garbage. But it definitely started that way. TVMs not working, validators not working, etc are all problems that have happened with every Presto rollout. The only that hasn't is cash fares, and that's because Presto doesn't support cash fares, requiring agencies to instead run totally parallel cash payment systems with incompatible transfers. Which has the effect of making ridership and transfer tracking far more difficult, or impossible, for agencies using Presto.

Presto uses much of the same equipment we do, just with different software. If we're having hardware failures then Presto would have too.

Maybe, but none of those issues applied to TTC adopting Presto which only happened after those issues were ironed out, nor would they have applied to us. I'd have preferred if we had bought a system that had those issues fixed.  I don't want to wait another 10 years for this bullshit to get fixed in our system.  It is absurd, that with a completely standard system, we were unable to buy a working off the shelf solution, whether presto, or whatever.

It's not as simple as just "Buying" presto. If they went with Presto (Which they didn't because at the time they didn't have the features needed, and Presto did not enter a bid), it would have to be integrated into the Presto network, and a portion of every fare would have to be paid to Presto.

While it would be nice to have the same card as the GTA, I have no problems having both a Presto card and a GRT card (I only carry around my presto card when I head to the GTA. Last time I used it was in November.)

At this point, to change the system over to Presto would not be cheap, and would likely lead to fare increases.

[danbrotherston]

Maybe, but none of those issues applied to TTC adopting Presto which only happened after those issues were ironed out, nor would they have applied to us. I'd have preferred if we had bought a system that had those issues fixed.  I don't want to wait another 10 years for this bullshit to get fixed in our system.  It is absurd, that with a completely standard system, we were unable to buy a working off the shelf solution, whether presto, or whatever.

It's not as simple as just "Buying" presto. If they went with Presto (Which they didn't because at the time they didn't have the features needed, and Presto did not enter a bid), it would have to be integrated into the Presto network, and a portion of every fare would have to be paid to Presto.

While it would be nice to have the same card as the GTA, I have no problems having both a Presto card and a GRT card (I only carry around my presto card when I head to the GTA. Last time I used it was in November.)

At this point, to change the system over to Presto would not be cheap, and would likely lead to fare increases.

These are all choices we make, and at the end of the day, for various reasons, we have chosen a path which was a) riskier (which bit us in the ass) and b) clearly worse for the user--but this is nothing new for non-car-occupants in the region.

[taylortbb]

Those are all issues that Presto had too. The Presto website is now, more than a decade later, not garbage. But it definitely started that way. TVMs not working, validators not working, etc are all problems that have happened with every Presto rollout. The only that hasn't is cash fares, and that's because Presto doesn't support cash fares, requiring agencies to instead run totally parallel cash payment systems with incompatible transfers. Which has the effect of making ridership and transfer tracking far more difficult, or impossible, for agencies using Presto.

Presto uses much of the same equipment we do, just with different software. If we're having hardware failures then Presto would have too.

Maybe, but none of those issues applied to TTC adopting Presto which only happened after those issues were ironed out, nor would they have applied to us. I'd have preferred if we had bought a system that had those issues fixed.  I don't want to wait another 10 years for this bullshit to get fixed in our system.  It is absurd, that with a completely standard system, we were unable to buy a working off the shelf solution, whether presto, or whatever.

I really think you're severely understating the number of issues that the TTC rollout specifically had. Yes, the website was good by then, but the TTC rollout of Presto was a total disaster with years of non-functional equipment. There were significant discussions about whether it was right for the TTC to be doing fare enforcement on streetcars when Presto validators were failing so consistently, and many vehicles were running without a single working validator. The TTC estimate of the amount of fare revenue they lost due to non-working validators is substantial.

I agree that government IT projects are terrible way too often, and that governments needs to fundamentally change how they purchase technology. I'm not defending the current situation as acceptable. But you seem to think that the failure is exclusively ours, when based on other cities it appears any other fare card wouldn't be any better.

[plam]

I agree that government IT projects are terrible way too often, and that governments needs to fundamentally change how they purchase technology. I'm not defending the current situation as acceptable. But you seem to think that the failure is exclusively ours, when based on other cities it appears any other fare card wouldn't be any better.

We have one comparison point here, Presto. What about other places? I admit I haven't followed the rollout of other cards closely. I just use them when I'm in some place and they seem to work.

[Bytor]

OPUS had problems, too, with both roll-out and non-working fare machines on busses https://blog.fagstein.com/2008/09/06/opus-sucks-too/

[bgb_ca]

Someone on UT posted one of Canardiain's tweets with a picture of the upcoming 515

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276966352461410306

[Bytor]

https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/11-of-14-io...-1.5016817
"11 of 14 ION LRT trains need repairs under warranty; no safety concerns"

The FB comments are the usual shit from the usual suspects.

[bgb_ca]

https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/11-of-14-io...-1.5016817
"11 of 14 ION LRT trains need repairs under warranty; no safety concerns"

The FB comments are the usual shit from the usual suspects.

That's why I don't read the FB comments for the Record or CTV News.

This was part of the welding defects that were identified with the TTC. At least they are going to fix ours here instead of shipping them away like they are for the TTC.

[Bytor]

This was part of the welding defects that were identified with the TTC. At least they are going to fix ours here instead of shipping them away like they are for the TTC.

The TTC's cars were Flexity Outlooks, ours were Flexity Freedoms. All but one of ours were made in Kingston with some help from La Pocatière whereas the TTC's were welded in Mexico, so I'm not really sure that this is "part of the welding defects that were identified with the TTC".

[jeffster]

This was part of the welding defects that were identified with the TTC. At least they are going to fix ours here instead of shipping them away like they are for the TTC.

The TTC's cars were Flexity Outlooks, ours were Flexity Freedoms. All but one of ours were made in Kingston with some help from La Pocatière whereas the TTC's were welded in Mexico, so I'm not really sure that this is "part of the welding defects that were identified with the TTC".

But it is a welding defect, to put in nicely. More bluntly, piss poor welding. But I think most of us knew this was coming at some point.

[tomh009]

The TTC's cars were Flexity Outlooks, ours were Flexity Freedoms. All but one of ours were made in Kingston with some help from La Pocatière whereas the TTC's were welded in Mexico, so I'm not really sure that this is "part of the welding defects that were identified with the TTC".

But it is a welding defect, to put in nicely. More bluntly, piss poor welding. But I think most of us knew this was coming at some point.

Given that it's all 11 (of the early) vehicles, I suspect it's not sloppy welding, but, rather, a specification/design error resulting in the "lack of fusion" that BBD has admitted to.

For example, it's possible that the filler metal alloy was not correct for the duplex-type steel used in the Flexity frames.