ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[chutten]

The real problem is that we don't know what the design intent is!!  We can't criticize the design until we understand that.

I don’t need to know the design intent to know that it does not take into account obvious needs of people using the area.

This reminds me of a similar situation with our student registration system at the University of Waterloo. I once commented unfavourably on the way the menu structure worked for students, which involved multiple levels of single-choice menus. Somebody said that basically it had to be that way because some users have more options in those menus. Uh, nope, the interface for students is inconvenient and doesn’t make sense; it doesn’t matter why or if the same interface works fine for certain staff members.

Happy to hear that ol' chestnut is still making the rounds about JobMine.

But you're right: even without knowing the design, the confusion it generates is evidence enough. Maybe it's a new road feature that will only generate confusion until people get used to it (see: roundabouts), but if so it needs to be signed like one and have its different portions given appropriate affordance to suggest their uses.

[Pheidippides]

It is clear to me that it wasn't met to be driven on. It is bordered on all sides be curbs. It's almost like drivers think anything covered asphalt entitles them to drive on it.

I suspect that asphalt is meant as a harm reduction strategy. They recognized that people were going to cut through so make as few tripping hazards as possible. Of course with a few design changes it could have been much better executed.

I don't know how they will ever find a tenant for the old yogurt place behind Famoso pizza with it being essentially cut-off from every approach - unless they make a door in the back/parking lot side.

[ijmorlan]

I don’t need to know the design intent to know that it does not take into account obvious needs of people using the area.

This reminds me of a similar situation with our student registration system at the University of Waterloo. I once commented unfavourably on the way the menu structure worked for students, which involved multiple levels of single-choice menus. Somebody said that basically it had to be that way because some users have more options in those menus. Uh, nope, the interface for students is inconvenient and doesn’t make sense; it doesn’t matter why or if the same interface works fine for certain staff members.

Happy to hear that ol' chestnut is still making the rounds about JobMine.

But you're right: even without knowing the design, the confusion it generates is evidence enough. Maybe it's a new road feature that will only generate confusion until people get used to it (see: roundabouts), but if so it needs to be signed like one and have its different portions given appropriate affordance to suggest their uses.

Actually I’m talking about Quest, although I haven’t heard much good about JobMine.

Quest also has a tendency to force everybody to “search” for things, even when only a small number (often <5) choices actually make sense for that person. The right way is just to list the applicable choices and let the person choose, for people in that situation, and leave the search function for people who might possibly actually need to look up a wide variety of items. But the fundamental general problem, as far as I can tell, is that the right way involves actually thinking about what the end user needs, not coming up with some technical excuse why a reasonable interface is impossible.

Just to be clear, I have implemented a few WTFs in my time, but in most cases I know I have done so, I tend to agree with people when they mention something is confusing, and sometimes I go back and improve things when I have the time.

[Canard]

It's almost like drivers think anything covered asphalt entitles them to drive on it.

...is that so impossible to fault them for? There is no demarcation at all at the intersections to "real" roads. The pavement just continues. There are no signs (inside the lot) saying "don't go here".

So, to me, it's totally understandable someone might drive down there, and I couldn't fault them for it at all (maybe a little).

[ijmorlan]

It's almost like drivers think anything covered asphalt entitles them to drive on it.

...is that so impossible to fault them for?  There is no demarcation at all at the intersections to "real" roads.  The pavement just continues.  There are no signs (inside the lot) saying "don't go here".

So, to me, it's totally understandable someone might drive down there, and I couldn't fault them for it at all (maybe a little).

There definitely should be do-not-enter signs at the crossings in the parking lot. Also, where they put those small concrete barriers and plastic posts at King St., I would prefer to see bollards on either side of the tracks, all four with do-not-enter signs mounted on them. I don’t know about the exact dimensions involved, but I suspect carefully placed bollards could absolutely prevent truck entry and would require smaller vehicles to drive very carefully between them, while ignoring a pair of do-not-enter signs right in their faces.

I would say that upon analysis, it’s absolutely clear cars are not supposed to use that area, but from the point of view of a driver just watching what is in front of them, it is equally unclear from certain directions that they aren’t supposed to enter. This applies doubly since there was an entrance there pre-construction and a reasonable default assumption is that it has been restored.

It occurs to me that the lights on King should be straight-ahead arrows too. They’re not active yet, but they should explicitly indicate that no turns are permitted. Also the concrete sidewalks on King should continue across the tracks, interrupting the continuous asphalt.

[SammyOES2]

Actually I’m talking about Quest, although I haven’t heard much good about JobMine.

WaterlooWorks is just as silly. If you follow a link and aren't logged in you have to go through 3 clicks to get to the login screen. "Log Into WaterlooWorks" (the only option) -> "Employers" (could also choose students) -> "Log In" (could also choose "register") -> Standard log in screen.

WaterlooWorks is much better than JobMine but its still embarrassing introducing someone to the Waterloo co-op software. Waterloo has one of the best co-op programs in North American (and probably the world) but people's first impressions are set with just horribly designed software.

Anyway, not related to ION, so /rant.

[danbrotherston]

WaterlooWorks is just as silly.  If you follow a link and aren't logged in you have to go through 3 clicks to get to the login screen.  "Log Into WaterlooWorks" (the only option) -> "Employers" (could also choose students) -> "Log In" (could also choose "register") -> Standard log in screen.

WaterlooWorks is much better than JobMine but its still embarrassing introducing someone to the Waterloo co-op software.  Waterloo has one of the best co-op programs in North American (and probably the world) but people's first impressions are set with just horribly designed software.

Anyway, not related to ION, so /rant.

Better than Jobmine?  That's debatable.  I certainly find it much worse.

[danbrotherston]

There definitely should be do-not-enter signs at the crossings in the parking lot. Also, where they put those small concrete barriers and plastic posts at King St., I would prefer to see bollards on either side of the tracks, all four with do-not-enter signs mounted on them. I don’t know about the exact dimensions involved, but I suspect carefully placed bollards could absolutely prevent truck entry and would require smaller vehicles to drive very carefully between them, while ignoring a pair of do-not-enter signs right in their faces.

I would say that upon analysis, it’s absolutely clear cars are not supposed to use that area, but from the point of view of a driver just watching what is in front of them, it is equally unclear from certain directions that they aren’t supposed to enter. This applies doubly since there was an entrance there pre-construction and a reasonable default assumption is that it has been restored.

It occurs to me that the lights on King should be straight-ahead arrows too. They’re not active yet, but they should explicitly indicate that no turns are permitted. Also the concrete sidewalks on King should continue across the tracks, interrupting the continuous asphalt.

There should be more signage perhaps, but drivers should still know better, where are you allowed to drive along railway tracks?

The small barriers are in fact the worse design possible for cyclists. They force you to ride very close and along the tracks, and yet still allow cars to enter.

[trainspotter139]

There definitely should be do-not-enter signs at the crossings in the parking lot. Also, where they put those small concrete barriers and plastic posts at King St., I would prefer to see bollards on either side of the tracks, all four with do-not-enter signs mounted on them. I don’t know about the exact dimensions involved, but I suspect carefully placed bollards could absolutely prevent truck entry and would require smaller vehicles to drive very carefully between them, while ignoring a pair of do-not-enter signs right in their faces.

I would say that upon analysis, it’s absolutely clear cars are not supposed to use that area, but from the point of view of a driver just watching what is in front of them, it is equally unclear from certain directions that they aren’t supposed to enter. This applies doubly since there was an entrance there pre-construction and a reasonable default assumption is that it has been restored.

It occurs to me that the lights on King should be straight-ahead arrows too. They’re not active yet, but they should explicitly indicate that no turns are permitted. Also the concrete sidewalks on King should continue across the tracks, interrupting the continuous asphalt.

There should be more signage perhaps, but drivers should still know better, where are you allowed to drive along railway tracks?

The small barriers are in fact the worse design possible for cyclists. They force you to ride very close and along the tracks, and yet still allow cars to enter.

There's a street-running section of railway in Brantford...

[Canard]

Toronto says hi

[SammyOES2]

Better than Jobmine?  That's debatable.  I certainly find it much worse.

I find it significantly better for posting and managing multiple jobs term-after-term and it allows you to download resumes in one giant PDF which makes reviewing resumes for a position so much easier.

It's definitely not good software - but these things can make me forgive anything else that got worse in the move from Jobmine.

[danbrotherston]

...

There's a street-running section of railway in Brantford...

Really? Google link?

Regardless, it's not generally something that's done, if I came across such a thing, I would not think I can drive there.

[ijmorlan]

...

There's a street-running section of railway in Brantford...

Really?  Google link?

Regardless, it's not generally something that's done, if I came across such a thing, I would not think I can drive there.

Actually if it’s like most of the street-running segments I’ve seen (on video and in photos), you would most likely be on it before it even occurred to you to question whether you were supposed to be there or not. Embedded tracks are quite unobtrusive and don’t have to have much effect on the overall appearance of the road. A few examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8svKXQ2eaM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbD2M9RrhQE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5GHmENmf88

[trainspotter139]

It shares the sidewalk space on one side of Clarence St in Brantford then it cuts through the right turn lane for a short time https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.1385529,-...312!8i6656.

There are quite a few places in the US where it runs right on the street like this example in Utica, New York https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.1057156,-...312!8i6656

[DHLawrence]

There used to be a section on Ferguson Street in Hamilton but it was pulled up in the 80s. I think Peterborough's Bethune Street used to *be* a railway line in some segments; others presumably had street running because there are houses facing it. Story is that a lot of the ruts in Charlotte Street are where the road is sinking around railway ties, but they seem awfully close together.

A few more examples are listed here. Kent Street in Guelph is a special case because the tracks are in a boulevard. So are Lakeshore's, come to think of it.