General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours

[SF22]

Fitting, given that Victoria is a car sewer.

I'm about 80% certain that there's another gas station going in, too - at Victoria and Lackner. 800m away from the Shell at Natchez that opened within the last couple years.

I live in eternal hope that Victoria will be chosen for ION Stage 3, and all the zoning will change and it won't be so damn terrible anymore, like how Cambridge put together that new plan to fix Hespeler Rd.

[bravado]

Fitting, given that Victoria is a car sewer.

I'm about 80% certain that there's another gas station going in, too - at Victoria and Lackner. 800m away from the Shell at Natchez that opened within the last couple years.

I live in eternal hope that Victoria will be chosen for ION Stage 3, and all the zoning will change and it won't be so damn terrible anymore, like how Cambridge put together that new plan to fix Hespeler Rd.

I have so many questions for whoever is investing in new gas stations in 2023

[SF22]

I'm about 80% certain that there's another gas station going in, too - at Victoria and Lackner. 800m away from the Shell at Natchez that opened within the last couple years.

I live in eternal hope that Victoria will be chosen for ION Stage 3, and all the zoning will change and it won't be so damn terrible anymore, like how Cambridge put together that new plan to fix Hespeler Rd.

I have so many questions for whoever is investing in new gas stations in 2023

Right? I'm waiting for the first day that we see something like a 'charging station' - a place where you can park your electric car for 30m, plug into a charger, and then have a seat at the attached restaurant/cafe while you wait. Sort of like a truck stop, but for SUVs. I honestly believe we'll start seeing a new industry like that pop up (eventually) to replace gas stations that can no longer stay profitable.

[danbrotherston]

I have so many questions for whoever is investing in new gas stations in 2023

Right? I'm waiting for the first day that we see something like a 'charging station' - a place where you can park your electric car for 30m, plug into a charger, and then have a seat at the attached restaurant/cafe while you wait. Sort of like a truck stop, but for SUVs. I honestly believe we'll start seeing a new industry like that pop up (eventually) to replace gas stations that can no longer stay profitable.

Besides the addition of charging infrastructure, how does this differ from existing rest stops?

I think gas stations on the highway will actually survive pretty well with EVs, because they are exactly the places where people will need to charge, and they are a captive location where people who are stuck there for 20-30 minutes can go spend on some food.

Where as in city stations will almost certainly be mostly gone in 15-20 years. Even if people needed to charge in town (which should rarely be the case, they'll charge at home or maybe their destination) they can plug in at a charger, but then are not captive...they're not forced to stay at the gas station and eat gas station food...they can go anywhere in the city.

[bravado]

Should we take bets on who will be responsible for remediating old gas station sites in the future? The taxpayer right?

[tomh009]

Right? I'm waiting for the first day that we see something like a 'charging station' - a place where you can park your electric car for 30m, plug into a charger, and then have a seat at the attached restaurant/cafe while you wait. Sort of like a truck stop, but for SUVs. I honestly believe we'll start seeing a new industry like that pop up (eventually) to replace gas stations that can no longer stay profitable.

Besides the addition of charging infrastructure, how does this differ from existing rest stops?

I think gas stations on the highway will actually survive pretty well with EVs, because they are exactly the places where people will need to charge, and they are a captive location where people who are stuck there for 20-30 minutes can go spend on some food.

Where as in city stations will almost certainly be mostly gone in 15-20 years. Even if people needed to charge in town (which should rarely be the case, they'll charge at home or maybe their destination) they can plug in at a charger, but then are not captive...they're not forced to stay at the gas station and eat gas station food...they can go anywhere in the city.

A destination charger might be only a level 2, whereas a gas/charging station might offer something like 500 kW rapid charging, so there is a case for that. And not everyone will have charging capability at home. Not all multi-residential buildings will have it, and even in single-residential, you may not have enough charging for all your vehicles.

Building a new station on Victoria St can still make sense because it'll take decades for ICE vehicles to disappear (EV market share is still less than 10% and cars last much longer than 10 years), especially if it's designed to be able to transition to fast charging in the future (maybe even with an option to do it now).

[danbrotherston]

Besides the addition of charging infrastructure, how does this differ from existing rest stops?

I think gas stations on the highway will actually survive pretty well with EVs, because they are exactly the places where people will need to charge, and they are a captive location where people who are stuck there for 20-30 minutes can go spend on some food.

Where as in city stations will almost certainly be mostly gone in 15-20 years. Even if people needed to charge in town (which should rarely be the case, they'll charge at home or maybe their destination) they can plug in at a charger, but then are not captive...they're not forced to stay at the gas station and eat gas station food...they can go anywhere in the city.

A destination charger might be only a level 2, whereas a gas/charging station might offer something like 500 kW rapid charging, so there is a case for that. And not everyone will have charging capability at home. Not all multi-residential buildings will have it, and even in single-residential, you may not have enough charging for all your vehicles.

Building a new station on Victoria St can still make sense because it'll take decades for ICE vehicles to disappear (EV market share is still less than 10% and cars last much longer than 10 years), especially if it's designed to be able to transition to fast charging in the future (maybe even with an option to do it now).

They last "a little" longer than 10 years...12 years is a common average livespan AFAIK.

For the economics of running a gas station, like I said, 15-20 years seems a reasonable time frame. I have no idea what the economic payback period of building a gas station is, but if it's any longer than 15-20 years it would seem to be a risky investment.

As for charging stations, I do know about DC fast charging, but I don't see the purpose of it within cities. Travel within cities is within the range of an EV, so you're going to charge at home or your destination. And you're at your destination for a longer time, so you don't need fast charging. Obviously as I mentioned charging stations on the highway absolutely make sense.

As for charging at home...I don't think anyone who cannot charge at home will be motivated to own an EV...it's quickly going to become a necessity and buildings are going to roll it out, DC fast charging will never be fast enough for bi-weekly charges. There are easy and proven solutions to destination charging. Where I live now, very few people have their own driveway, but there are municipal EV chargers all over and people just park their EVs at the municipal chargers in public spaces.

[SF22]

A destination charger might be only a level 2, whereas a gas/charging station might offer something like 500 kW rapid charging, so there is a case for that. And not everyone will have charging capability at home. Not all multi-residential buildings will have it, and even in single-residential, you may not have enough charging for all your vehicles.

Building a new station on Victoria St can still make sense because it'll take decades for ICE vehicles to disappear (EV market share is still less than 10% and cars last much longer than 10 years), especially if it's designed to be able to transition to fast charging in the future (maybe even with an option to do it now).

They last "a little" longer than 10 years...12 years is a common average livespan AFAIK.

For the economics of running a gas station, like I said, 15-20 years seems a reasonable time frame. I have no idea what the economic payback period of building a gas station is, but if it's any longer than 15-20 years it would seem to be a risky investment.

As for charging stations, I do know about DC fast charging, but I don't see the purpose of it within cities. Travel within cities is within the range of an EV, so you're going to charge at home or your destination. And you're at your destination for a longer time, so you don't need fast charging. Obviously as I mentioned charging stations on the highway absolutely make sense.

As for charging at home...I don't think anyone who cannot charge at home will be motivated to own an EV...it's quickly going to become a necessity and buildings are going to roll it out, DC fast charging will never be fast enough for bi-weekly charges. There are easy and proven solutions to destination charging. Where I live now, very few people have their own driveway, but there are municipal EV chargers all over and people just park their EVs at the municipal chargers in public spaces.

It'll take a long time for existing apartment and condo buildings to retrofit their facilities to support nearly everyone having an electric vehicle. Could be that charging rest stops within the city peak for 10-20 years while all those retrofits get done, and then fade away as the demand decreases.

In my work, we have technicians who drive fully-laden work trucks around the region for most of the day. Might be that a charging rest stop could be beneficial to someone like that, who is carrying a lot of weight around and may not be getting the full range out of their battery, and benefits from a little top-up during the day when they aren't at home or the office with a designated charging spot.

[tomh009]

As for charging at home...I don't think anyone who cannot charge at home will be motivated to own an EV...it's quickly going to become a necessity and buildings are going to roll it out, DC fast charging will never be fast enough for bi-weekly charges. There are easy and proven solutions to destination charging. Where I live now, very few people have their own driveway, but there are municipal EV chargers all over and people just park their EVs at the municipal chargers in public spaces.

Will there be municipal chargers in Canada? Could be, but I think that's far from guaranteed. And if the EV/charger ratio is too high, charging stations will have an opportunity. Even in Netherlands, the EVs are still a tiny portion of the car population so they will need far more chargers 10 years from now. And here governments are considerably more allergic to such public investment.

[Joedelay Highhoe]

I'm surprised so many think that internal combustion engines will actually be phased out in the next 15-20 years. I'll believe that when I see it.

[danbrotherston]

As for charging at home...I don't think anyone who cannot charge at home will be motivated to own an EV...it's quickly going to become a necessity and buildings are going to roll it out, DC fast charging will never be fast enough for bi-weekly charges. There are easy and proven solutions to destination charging. Where I live now, very few people have their own driveway, but there are municipal EV chargers all over and people just park their EVs at the municipal chargers in public spaces.

Will there be municipal chargers in Canada? Could be, but I think that's far from guaranteed. And if the EV/charger ratio is too high, charging stations will have an opportunity. Even in Netherlands, the EVs are still a tiny portion of the car population so they will need far more chargers 10 years from now. And here governments are considerably more allergic to such public investment.

I mean...I think there will have to be. There are places in Canada where people can only park their vehicles on the street as permanent storage. And it is unlikely that Canada will go car free...ergo there will be EVs on the street that have to be charged.

I really don't think in city charging will ever be a thing...I would never ever own a car that I had to spend half an hour twice a week sitting waiting for my car to charge. People would never put up with that insanity.

Therefore, we either get a car free utopia, a society and car free dystopia, or municipal car chargers.

And frankly, Europe is different from Canada, but not as much as you'd think. Yes, we have higher taxes and better services, but there are also more paid for services. Because equity is better at a base level, there is less argument for government services being free. Libraries for example, are not free...I was pretty shocked by this, but you must pay yearly to use the library.

Same with the car chargers, they aren't free. But, if you buy an EV the government will, in a timely fashion, ensure that there are sufficient chargers in your neighbourhood for you use to charge your vehicle. Again, not free, but guaranteed to be provided.

[ac3r]

The proposed development at 137 Queen Street South has evolved. Originally planned to be an affordable housing project containing 21 units and then 51 units, they are now proposing a 6 floor apartment building with 57 affordable housing units and 1 level of underground parking. Not sure if this means the church will be demolished...I hope not! The architecture of churches is sooooooo important and ought to be preserved.

Don't have any more info than this, my apologies. You can possibly reach out to the City of Kitchener for more info if you'd like.

[panamaniac]

Unless someone has lost their mind, there’s zero chance that the church is coming down. There’s ample room on the property to accommodate the proposed project.

[HousingFan]

Committee of Adjustment - March 21, 2023 (escribemeetings.com)

Last item on the agenda is the church.  There are a number of attachments, including the staff report and a site plan.  I heard that some neighbours are very concerned about parking, shadow and view.

PS. Sorry if I posted the link incorrectly.  Long time reader, first time poster.

[CP42]

I recently moved into an apartment near the GO Transit layover yard between King and Park Streets and although it hasn’t bothered me too much, I’ve noticed that the trains parked there seem to idle all night from the time they arrive in the evening until the time they depart in the morning. 

Some articles on the issue of idling noise from when GO trains first came to the region in 2010 had quoted “GO Transit says the trains will only start up and run for 30 minutes to an hour” (https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/mobile/resi...y-1.578209). However, it appears they are idling for the entire time they are at the layover facility. 

I am a huge advocate for increased GO service from Kitchener to Toronto. However, I’m not sure why the trains need to idle all night? Unless there is a valid reason, this doesn’t seem like a good thing for both noise and pollution in the area. 

Any ideas why this might be the case? If there’s no valid reason, would there be any way to convince GO to only idle the trains 30-60 minutes prior to departure as previously stated in 2010 rather than for the entire ~10 hours at the layover facility?