Trails

[nms]

New information about the Stewart St and Joseph St MUTs reconstruction is on EngageWR now, including the drawings package.

Nothing particularly new, though I am glad to see that the MUT transition into the intersection at Victoria and through to the bike path is going to be properly graded down instead of the pedestrian curb cut and slopes like every wrist-breaking intersection on the Victoria St E MUT.

I never did check out the Vic St. MUT, I guess I should have. Yeah, the region doesn't really pay a lot of attention to getting grading right for cycling infra, although even the city refuses to build flush curbs (and we know they can, they often build flush curbs between the road and sidewalks/bike lanes).

But all this looks really good, narrowing the roads is great. The level of detail is excellent. And ultimately, I think the proposed infra is about as well designed as can be expected. FWIW, one could probably check the turn radii at Stewart St., they look a little wide (i.e., not compliant with Complete Streets) but honestly, given they probably are trying to appease Home Depot, it's probably not even worth pointing out. (Although it's worth remembering that even when building a project FOR cyclists AND doing everything right, we *still* put motor vehicle concerns front and centre, the claims of a "war on cars" amounts to the most obvious kind of fake victimhood)

I believe you mean the Home Hardware Building Centre.

[danbrotherston]

I never did check out the Vic St. MUT, I guess I should have. Yeah, the region doesn't really pay a lot of attention to getting grading right for cycling infra, although even the city refuses to build flush curbs (and we know they can, they often build flush curbs between the road and sidewalks/bike lanes).

But all this looks really good, narrowing the roads is great. The level of detail is excellent. And ultimately, I think the proposed infra is about as well designed as can be expected. FWIW, one could probably check the turn radii at Stewart St., they look a little wide (i.e., not compliant with Complete Streets) but honestly, given they probably are trying to appease Home Depot, it's probably not even worth pointing out. (Although it's worth remembering that even when building a project FOR cyclists AND doing everything right, we *still* put motor vehicle concerns front and centre, the claims of a "war on cars" amounts to the most obvious kind of fake victimhood)

I believe you mean the Home Hardware Building Centre.

Yes, you are right, my mistake.

[nms]

I took a quick Google Street View run down Stewart St, and with the exception of the 30m between the Home Hardware truck exit and Park St where parking restrictions might be required to allow the trucks space to pass, there doesn't look to be anything else along there that would be adversely affected by the proposed plan.

[danbrotherston]

I took a quick Google Street View run down Stewart St, and with the exception of the 30m between the Home Hardware truck exit and Park St where parking restrictions might be required to allow the trucks space to pass, there doesn't look to be anything else along there that would be adversely affected by the proposed plan.

Yes, I agree, but only because the current plan has significantly greater turn radii than the complete streets guide advises.

[nms]

Does the Complete Streets Guide factor in transport trucks with longer turn radii than possibly other urban vehicles like buses or firetrucks?

[danbrotherston]

Does the Complete Streets Guide factor in transport trucks with longer turn radii than possibly other urban vehicles like buses or firetrucks?

Yes, it is the "complete" streets guide, but on residential streets, it's generally considered that on residential streets, such vehicles should not be the design vehicle, if they have to work their way around a corner using the entire right of way, that's fine.

In this case, there is a trip generator that will mean there are more large trucks than usual turning in and out, however, home depot's trucks are not the largest type of transport truck, so they should have no trouble turning in the same radius as a fire truck.

[Acitta]

Here are pictures of the Transit Hub MUT Joseph St. to King St. that I took last Tuesday (Ap. 14).
               

[cherrypark]

That exit from the MUT is troublingly right angular and narrow. What was the thinking there? Not looking forward to trying to cycling through that with any additional users in the gap.

[danbrotherston]

That exit from the MUT is troublingly right angular and narrow. What was the thinking there? Not looking forward to trying to cycling through that with any additional users in the gap.

This question includes assumptions which are not justified.

Our engineers are automatons who apply standards without thinking, there is no standard requiring thoughtful corners on MUTs so there aren't any, sadly unless there is someone on them every step of the way, they'll do stuff like this pretty much by wrote.

FWIW...that's actually connecting to another MUT, but you'd never know it, because it was only built as a non-compliant sidewalk...our engineers had this conversation:

Engineer 1: "what's a MUT, that's a wide sidewalk right?"

Engineer 2: "Yeah, sounds right."

E1: "Hmm...I don't have room for a wide sidewalk...."

E2: "Okay, just a regular sidewalk then..."

E1: "well I don't even have that much room..."

E2: "I'm sure it's fine."

[ac3r]

Engineers generally think like engineers, so this trail being awkward is hardly a surprise. Their minds tend to think a certain way so they tend to forget the human aspect of things when it comes to design. You can see the dichotomy of this when it comes to software design, too. In fact, it was largely thanks to the architect Christopher Alexander who influenced software design through his approach to architecture to become much more human focused. For the longest time, software design was awful and it made using it - for the general population - was highly cumbersome and annoying. It wasn't until recently that UX design became an ever more important aspect of software design because with the proliferation of devices being so ubiquitous that software companies needed to ensure their software could be easily understood and pleasing for users to utilize.

There's definitely a lot to criticize about this trail. The weird 90 degree angles, the fact the exit is behind a rapid transit station, that it comes out on an incredibly busy and very pedestrian unfriendly intersection, that it just exits on a busy sidewalk and so much more. But, I can understand why this is the result. Engineers just suck at thinking about human aspect of design. This sort of stuff ought to be designed by landscape architects, while letting engineers manage the boring nonsense like where to put bricks or what angle to build a ramp on.

[Acitta]

That exit from the MUT is troublingly right angular and narrow. What was the thinking there? Not looking forward to trying to cycling through that with any additional users in the gap.

I imagine that they will widen the exit. It is, after all, not finished yet.

[cherrypark]

That exit from the MUT is troublingly right angular and narrow. What was the thinking there? Not looking forward to trying to cycling through that with any additional users in the gap.

This question includes assumptions which are not justified.

Wish it were not the case, however...

That exit from the MUT is troublingly right angular and narrow. What was the thinking there? Not looking forward to trying to cycling through that with any additional users in the gap.

I imagine that they will widen the exit. It is, after all, not finished yet.

You are right, perhaps some marginal widening to come, though judging by the newer retaining wall stones I would be surprised there is much more to change. The downhill slope into a tight 90 and a "stop sign" (lol.) with a giant stone wall is asking for a bad time, especially for the less confident riders a MUT is supposed to encourage to ride more.

[danbrotherston]

That exit from the MUT is troublingly right angular and narrow. What was the thinking there? Not looking forward to trying to cycling through that with any additional users in the gap.

I imagine that they will widen the exit. It is, after all, not finished yet.

Those retaining walls sure look finished to me.

[Acitta]

I imagine that they will widen the exit. It is, after all, not finished yet.

Those retaining walls sure look finished to me.

The end is only two levels high. It wouldn't be hard to remove them.

[danbrotherston]

Those retaining walls sure look finished to me.

The end is only two levels high. It wouldn't be hard to remove them.

"Removing them" implies they are finished, and being changed after the fact.

It's possible the contractor has made an error that will be corrected, but in any case, even if they widened that, I'd still call it a bad design.