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+--- Thread: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road (/showthread.php?tid=75)
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - sevenman - 08-07-2019
Is the general assumption on here is that the flyover lanes are the two new additional lanes?
It's my understanding from everything that I've seen and read regarding this construction that the flyover ramp lanes from Hwy 8 onto to Hwy 401 EB are in addition to the five new lanes and not the two new lanes themselves. You will still need to merge from the flyover lanes onto the new 5-lane section.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - timio - 08-07-2019
Edit - I was mistaken about the space argument.
^ Incorrect There will be 3 through lanes + 2 flyover lanes. There is not enough space for 7 lanes.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - ijmorlan - 08-07-2019
(08-07-2019, 03:02 PM)embe Wrote: Agreed. Ever seen the drivers that straddle the line to prevent other cars from (seemingly) budding ahead in line? If there is a lane of traffic to be used, don't obstruct it. You're making it worse.
The only thing I would say is that at some point, the lanes need to equalize speeds. Otherwise you end up with one lane going quickly right through into the narrow section, while the other one is much slower as it tries to merge into the faster lane. In the limiting case the fast lane is at full highway speed while the slow lane is stopped. Then every so often somebody will try to switch from the slow lane to the fast lane, requiring quick acceleration and leading to risk of a collision.
Instead, people in the lane that would be faster should pick a “buddy” next to them in the slow lane and stay next to that person. Then the two lanes can smoothly zipper together. The switch from just taking the speed of ones current lane to matching speed with the other lane can happen gradually, with a smooth shift from just following the car in front to limiting oneself to slightly faster than the adjacent car to matching speeds exactly.
This is the only stable solution of which I am aware to the merging problem. If everybody merges early, then as others have pointed out, what is the other lane for? And if everybody aggressively takes “their” spot right to the merge point, you get unstable and dangerous traffic flow. As is often the case, the two “sides” of the “debate” are both wrong.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - Rainrider22 - 08-07-2019
(08-07-2019, 04:58 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:You are very correct. The issue is what we call speed differential. When you are passing on the outside or inside, limit your speed to a max of 15 km/h of the moving traffic. This will allow people to see you coming in their mirrors. It also discourages dangerous movements from others because they become frustrated with what they perceive as people jumping the cue (which they are not, they are legally using available lane to drive in). Once they are near the point of merge, then yes, pick a "buddy" and slowly zipper effect in. The line of traffic should be speeding up onto the highway, not slowing down. This is what causes the collisions.(08-07-2019, 03:02 PM)embe Wrote: Agreed. Ever seen the drivers that straddle the line to prevent other cars from (seemingly) budding ahead in line? If there is a lane of traffic to be used, don't obstruct it. You're making it worse.
The only thing I would say is that at some point, the lanes need to equalize speeds. Otherwise you end up with one lane going quickly right through into the narrow section, while the other one is much slower as it tries to merge into the faster lane. In the limiting case the fast lane is at full highway speed while the slow lane is stopped. Then every so often somebody will try to switch from the slow lane to the fast lane, requiring quick acceleration and leading to risk of a collision.
Instead, people in the lane that would be faster should pick a “buddy” next to them in the slow lane and stay next to that person. Then the two lanes can smoothly zipper together. The switch from just taking the speed of ones current lane to matching speed with the other lane can happen gradually, with a smooth shift from just following the car in front to limiting oneself to slightly faster than the adjacent car to matching speeds exactly.
This is the only stable solution of which I am aware to the merging problem. If everybody merges early, then as others have pointed out, what is the other lane for? And if everybody aggressively takes “their” spot right to the merge point, you get unstable and dangerous traffic flow. As is often the case, the two “sides” of the “debate” are both wrong.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - sevenman - 08-07-2019
(08-07-2019, 03:40 PM)timio Wrote: ^ Incorrect There will be 3 through lanes + 2 flyover lanes. There is not enough space for 7 lanes.What happens to those two flyover lanes when they reach hwy 24?
Also, in the next 5 years Hwy 401 is proposed to be widened to four lanes in each direction between Homer Watson and the current construction as part of the new Hwy 8 to Hwy 401 WB and Hwy 401 EB to Hwy 8 flyover contract. Not sure how a fourth EB lane would merge into an existing 3-lane situation?
The Fountain St. Bridge was lengthened to accommodate those numbers beneath it. Moving the flyover lanes further to the right (south) on the other side of the column certainly provides the room for those additional lanes. There were already five lanes ( 3 + 2 flyover) before they started any construction and now they've moved two lanes further to the right so there is definitely the room.
I guess we'll see?
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - timio - 08-07-2019
For now, the two lanes exit, leaving 4km for purple to merge left. The next phase is supposed to be widening through Townline so they would continue.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - jamincan - 08-07-2019
I'm pretty sure construction drawings or EA drawings showed the configuration and it was 5 in each direction with 3 continuing and 2 exiting/entering from 8. 2 lanes will exit/enter at Hespeler with the Hwy dropping to 8 lanes to Franklin where two more will exit/enter and 6 lanes will continue passed that.
The bridge structure over the Grand River needs rehabilitation and will be widened when they do, but the 401 will remain 6 lanes for now to Homer Watson.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - KevinT - 08-08-2019
(08-07-2019, 02:01 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote:(08-07-2019, 01:05 PM)KevinT Wrote: A Kitchener participant on the Canada's Worst Driver show a few years ago specifically asked Cam Woolley (former OPP Sergeant) if she had to merge left at the Sportsworld to Hwy 8 North on-ramp, and his answer was basically "Yes, absolutely." I'm sure it was just a mis-understanding of our local ramps on his part, but I face-palmed hard. That participant did _not_ need their bad behaviour re-enforced by a trusted spokesperson on national TV.
There are two lanes of ramp for a reason. People always look at me when I continue past them in the right lane like I am in the wrong. Well I ask you, how far before the 300 metre merge warning sign should I merge ? A km before hand? sooner ? then what is the point of building the lane? The lane is there to take on the additional volume of traffic. Use it....
In this specific case there isn't even a merge. Two lanes of northbound Hwy 8 become three where the ramp from Maple Grove/Sportsworld joins it as a new lane, then four where the ramp from King St joins it as a new lane. The lane count doesn't go down for several kilometres until it splits/ends/becomes King St at the expressway. That's the local knowledge that Cam Woolley didn't have (or failed to consider) in his televised answer.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - KevinT - 08-08-2019
(08-07-2019, 04:58 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: This is the only stable solution of which I am aware to the merging problem. If everybody merges early, then as others have pointed out, what is the other lane for? And if everybody aggressively takes “their” spot right to the merge point, you get unstable and dangerous traffic flow. As is often the case, the two “sides” of the “debate” are both wrong.
Incredibly well said.
My favourite merge occurred on Hwy 403 eastbound near the Grand River a few years ago. Some clever contractor put up a sign that showed two lanes merging without either lane ending, and that's exactly how the road cones were set up with the dotted line through the centre of the merge blacked out. Traffic had to zipper merge to the centre where the dotted line had been, then the cones veered us left into the lane which remained open. Neither 'side' of the debate existed as it was a true zipper merge of equally prioritized lanes. I don't know if that was just an experiment by the MTO or what because I haven't encountered it anywhere else since, but it was brilliant.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - ijmorlan - 08-08-2019
(08-08-2019, 12:49 PM)KevinT Wrote:(08-07-2019, 04:58 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: This is the only stable solution of which I am aware to the merging problem. If everybody merges early, then as others have pointed out, what is the other lane for? And if everybody aggressively takes “their” spot right to the merge point, you get unstable and dangerous traffic flow. As is often the case, the two “sides” of the “debate” are both wrong.
Incredibly well said.
My favourite merge occurred on Hwy 403 eastbound near the Grand River a few years ago. Some clever contractor put up a sign that showed two lanes merging without either lane ending, and that's exactly how the road cones were set up with the dotted line through the centre of the merge blacked out. Traffic had to zipper merge to the centre where the dotted line had been, then the cones veered us left into the lane which remained open. Neither 'side' of the debate existed as it was a true zipper merge of equally prioritized lanes. I don't know if that was just an experiment by the MTO or what because I haven't encountered it anywhere else since, but it was brilliant.
Thank you!
Excellent point about the symmetric merge. Our usual paint is wrong for a narrowing situation; a better way to do it is to have traffic in either incoming lane have to cross a dashed line to get into the new single lane (or what you saw). Then it’s clear that everybody has to cooperate, rather than people in one lane being considered to have the right of way. The usual non-symmetric paint then encourages people in the ending lane to get out of it early so they don’t have to worry about the merge; then other people use the now-empty lane to zoom past the other people, which then looks like queue-jumping.
On-ramp merges are different — I’m not really suggesting changing the paint there.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - KevinT - 08-09-2019
(08-08-2019, 04:34 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: Excellent point about the symmetric merge. Our usual paint is wrong for a narrowing situation; a better way to do it is to have traffic in either incoming lane have to cross a dashed line to get into the new single lane (or what you saw). Then it’s clear that everybody has to cooperate, rather than people in one lane being considered to have the right of way. The usual non-symmetric paint then encourages people in the ending lane to get out of it early so they don’t have to worry about the merge; then other people use the now-empty lane to zoom past the other people, which then looks like queue-jumping.
On-ramp merges are different — I’m not really suggesting changing the paint there.
Agreed. I've seen on-ramp merges without a dotted line before (probably in the US but maybe it was Quebec) and I hated them. With the majority of on-ramps the incoming traffic is obliged to accelerate to speed of traffic / sync up with a gap instead of slowing every else down with a lazy merge. Their lane truly does end and they're changing from a lower speed zone to a faster one, versus a construction lane closure where the inbound/outbound speed of all lanes involved in the merge remains the same.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - danbrotherston - 08-09-2019
(08-09-2019, 12:22 PM)KevinT Wrote:(08-08-2019, 04:34 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: Excellent point about the symmetric merge. Our usual paint is wrong for a narrowing situation; a better way to do it is to have traffic in either incoming lane have to cross a dashed line to get into the new single lane (or what you saw). Then it’s clear that everybody has to cooperate, rather than people in one lane being considered to have the right of way. The usual non-symmetric paint then encourages people in the ending lane to get out of it early so they don’t have to worry about the merge; then other people use the now-empty lane to zoom past the other people, which then looks like queue-jumping.
On-ramp merges are different — I’m not really suggesting changing the paint there.
Agreed. I've seen on-ramp merges without a dotted line before (probably in the US but maybe it was Quebec) and I hated them. With the majority of on-ramps the incoming traffic is obliged to accelerate to speed of traffic / sync up with a gap instead of slowing every else down with a lazy merge. Their lane truly does end and they're changing from a lower speed zone to a faster one, versus a construction lane closure where the inbound/outbound speed of all lanes involved in the merge remains the same.
Both the US and Quebec use this design.
It works better in heavy traffic, Ontario's design works better in low traffic.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - sevenman - 08-10-2019
(08-07-2019, 03:40 PM)timio Wrote: ^ Incorrect There will be 3 through lanes + 2 flyover lanes. There is not enough space for 7 lanes.Actually you may be incorrect, there definitely is room for seven EB lanes under the the Fountain St. bridge. That's the main reason the bridge was rebuilt and lengthened in the manner in which it was. The spacing between the new centre bridge columns and the next set of columns allows for the five 401 EB through lanes. Then the spacing between this set of columns and the bridge abutment allows for the two EB flyover lanes.
Now the MTO may choose to allow the flyover lanes to just be added to the three existing EB lanes and continue as five with no merge but that's not the long term design of the 401 and it will then force lane remarking when the proposed widening from Homer Watson to this new upcoming five lane section occurs.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - timio - 08-13-2019
Two things:
1. There does seem to be enough space to fit 5+2 at the flyover, so I retract my previous statement. Apologies for my error. Still to be determined if that's how it is eventually configured.
2. They've started paving the unpaved bits before Franklin on the EB lanes.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - sevenman - 08-14-2019
(08-13-2019, 08:51 AM)timio Wrote: Two things:
1. There does seem to be enough space to fit 5+2 at the flyover, so I retract my previous statement. Apologies for my error. Still to be determined if that's how it is eventually configured.
2. They've started paving the unpaved bits before Franklin on the EB lanes.
No apologies necessary. The configuration would certainly be simpler to just add the two flyover lanes to the three existing lanes.
I also wonder about possibility that the 401EB widens to four lanes just past King St. E. and then the EB on ramp onto the 401 from King St. E. becomes the fifth lane as it passes under the Fountain St. bridge and from there the two Hwy 8 flyover lanes merge with those five. I think that is what the final configuration will be when the 401 is widened from Homer W. to King St. E. in the future. We may know by this weekend as the King St. on ramp is scheduled to re-open.
It will also be interesting to see the 401 WB go from five lanes back to three rather quickly after the Fountain St. bridge and see if this causes any merging issues. Regardless, it looks as if we'll soon see 14 lanes under the Fountain St. Bridge, whether now with the completion of this contract or in the near future.
Cheers