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+--- Thread: Winter Walking and Cycling (/showthread.php?tid=654)
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - jamincan - 01-17-2018
(01-17-2018, 08:34 PM)darts Wrote: It does bring up an interesting question that will probably just get people shitting on me for asking. should it be at a level so that everyone can pass regardless of their personal mobility issues? How many people not being able to cross is acceptable?
The reality right now is that a significant proportion of the population is impeded, even those without mobility issues. I don't really see the point in engaging in hypotheticals. We would probably still have issues with the cities taking over snow clearing, but at the very least there would be some uniformity.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - darts - 01-17-2018
(01-17-2018, 09:22 PM)PhilippAchtel Wrote:(01-17-2018, 08:34 PM)darts Wrote: I have a history with him? I know I pointed out before that he was over exaggerating previously after a snowfall on how unpassable a sidewalk was for him, a self described able body person and how much worse it would be for others. (to be clear, not saying it isn't more difficult for others, just saying he shouldn't have been feeling like it is pushing his limits physically so it would be impossible for anyone who has the slightest issue)
Only other thing I can think of off the top of my head would be about development charges for townships for transit that won't benefit them.
Clearly I needed to write a few paragraphs to show that the measurement tritag used to determine what is passable needs more discussion since some people would say anything that doesn't show the concrete of the sidewalk is unpassable and give it a failing grade.
It does bring up an interesting question that will probably just get people shitting on me for asking. should it be at a level so that everyone can pass regardless of their personal mobility issues? How many people not being able to cross is acceptable?
None. After 24 hours, anyone who can travel on a regular sidewalk in any other season should be able to travel on a sidewalk in the winter.
We're a medium-sized wealthy city in the 21st century. We know the cost of providing such a service, and that it's well within our means to do so. The ability to safely travel from your home to your destination even in winter should be seen as something of a human right. The idea that anyone in our city has to take the road to pass with their stroller or mobility scooter should be seen as an embarrassment.
does that include all sidewalks citywide?
Would preventive methods be better so there wouldn't even be a 24 hour waiting period? The payback from operating a 24 hour service for sidewalk clearing that is 100% effective would lead to having sheltered sidewalks/tunnels.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - darts - 01-17-2018
(01-17-2018, 09:33 PM)jamincan Wrote:(01-17-2018, 08:34 PM)darts Wrote: It does bring up an interesting question that will probably just get people shitting on me for asking. should it be at a level so that everyone can pass regardless of their personal mobility issues? How many people not being able to cross is acceptable?
The reality right now is that a significant proportion of the population is impeded, even those without mobility issues. I don't really see the point in engaging in hypotheticals. We would probably still have issues with the cities taking over snow clearing, but at the very least there would be some uniformity.
Is there a significant proportion of the population that is impeded? GRT has somewhere between 7-10% ridership. Not sure how many of those riders have mobility issues.
Separately,
With sidewalks cleared those users would still have issues leaving the house since the city wouldn't be clearing their walkways/driveways if they lived in a detached home/townhouse without having to rely on someone who is able bodied enough to shovel the driveway/walkway or if they live in an apartment.
Not saying it isn't a step closer but it looks like to me that these drawbacks aren't considered or discussed (at least I haven't seen any mention of it here) and sidewalk clearing is discussed as if everything will be 100% perfect afterwards.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - PhilippAchtel - 01-17-2018
(01-17-2018, 10:29 PM)darts Wrote:(01-17-2018, 09:22 PM)PhilippAchtel Wrote: None. After 24 hours, anyone who can travel on a regular sidewalk in any other season should be able to travel on a sidewalk in the winter.
We're a medium-sized wealthy city in the 21st century. We know the cost of providing such a service, and that it's well within our means to do so. The ability to safely travel from your home to your destination even in winter should be seen as something of a human right. The idea that anyone in our city has to take the road to pass with their stroller or mobility scooter should be seen as an embarrassment.
does that include all sidewalks citywide?
Would preventive methods be better so there wouldn't even be a 24 hour waiting period? The payback from operating a 24 hour service for sidewalk clearing that is 100% effective would lead to having sheltered sidewalks/tunnels.
I don't know. We don't encase all our public roadways in glass tunnels and that's not what advocates for a more comprehensive sidewalk clearing policy are asking for either. Holding pedestrian walkways to the same or similar standards is not at all an unreasonable request.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - PhilippAchtel - 01-17-2018
(01-17-2018, 10:39 PM)darts Wrote:(01-17-2018, 09:33 PM)jamincan Wrote: The reality right now is that a significant proportion of the population is impeded, even those without mobility issues. I don't really see the point in engaging in hypotheticals. We would probably still have issues with the cities taking over snow clearing, but at the very least there would be some uniformity.
Is there a significant proportion of the population that is impeded? GRT has somewhere between 7-10% ridership. Not sure how many of those riders have mobility issues.
Separately,
With sidewalks cleared those users would still have issues leaving the house since the city wouldn't be clearing their walkways/driveways if they lived in a detached home/townhouse without having to rely on someone who is able bodied enough to shovel the driveway/walkway or if they live in an apartment.
Not saying it isn't a step closer but it looks like to me that these drawbacks aren't considered or discussed (at least I haven't seen any mention of it here) and sidewalk clearing is discussed as if everything will be 100% perfect afterwards.
Reading this, I really strongly doubt you're discussing this in good faith. Not everyone will or can clear their own property to a certain standard without help and thus we shouldn't even bother clearing the public walkways that connect those properties? Can you even imagine someone making that kind of argument about public roadways?
Or can you imagine a system where every property owner was solely responsible for maintaining the public roads adjacent to their property, given what you already admit is their inability to even maintain their own driveway? And yet this is the system we expect students, the elderly, parents with small children, and people with mobility issues to rely upon every day in the winter.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - darts - 01-17-2018
(01-17-2018, 11:12 PM)PhilippAchtel Wrote:I was suggesting it since you were suggesting all sidewalks within 24 hours and I imagine is the eventual goal?(01-17-2018, 10:29 PM)darts Wrote: does that include all sidewalks citywide?
Would preventive methods be better so there wouldn't even be a 24 hour waiting period? The payback from operating a 24 hour service for sidewalk clearing that is 100% effective would lead to having sheltered sidewalks/tunnels.
I don't know. We don't encase all our public roadways in glass tunnels and that's not what advocates for a more comprehensive sidewalk clearing policy are asking for either. Holding pedestrian walkways to the same or similar standards is not at all an unreasonable request.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - Pheidippides - 01-17-2018
(01-17-2018, 03:09 PM)goggolor Wrote: It sounds like all of the complaints are starting to get through to city officials: https://www.kitchenerpost.ca/news-story/8076116-city-sees-sidewalk-snow-clearing-as-a-high-priority-/
Quote:Mayor Berry Vrbanovic said the city needs to do better.
“If we’re encouraging more people to walk, if we’re encouraging more people to rely on transit, if we're wanting to make our community more accessible … this is something we need to do a better job on — and when I say we, I mean the city in some cases and the region in others.”
Vrbanovic wondered if local governments should study the number of people with accessibility challenges and perhaps provide a higher level of public transit during the winter months instead.
Several other councillors also expressed a desire to move toward change.
“For this being one of the first years I’ve had to walk my kids to a bus stop with a stroller … I’ve learned some of the challenges first hand,” Galloway-Sealock said. “I’ve had to go on road and everything because the curb cuts aren’t plowed and many different things.”
She’s also hearing a lot more public support for municipal sidewalk clearing.
“I think it is something we need to seriously consider.”
Councillor Galloway-Sealock's comment is reflective of some of the opinions here too - across many topics.
It seems that a few people have trouble putting themselves in others' shoes or seeing things from another perspective or even seeing the broader, collective benefit for society as a whole. Or even seeing the benefit for themselves, after all we are all pedestrians at some point in our journeys. As a result too many people think the status quo is passable.
It's as if for some people, if it hasn't happened to them personally, it isn't even in the realm of possibility. Or, even with an experience, if something isn't a problem for them, it can't possibly be a problem for others.
To paraphrase the old adage, "we are only as strong as our weakest link":
We are only as accessible as our iciest/snowiest sidewalk.
We are only as accessible as our highest curb.
There is a tidal wave of older adults crossing over in to senior adults who probably don't even know how much they will appreciate this service.
I am glad that the message seems to be getting through, but this statement is a bit disheartening:
"Fletcher said she anticipates bringing back a more comprehensive report in June that will incorporate new provincial maintenance standards expected out in the first quarter of this year."
It is already too late to do anything for winter 2017-2018 and winter 2018-2019 (because budget 2018 hasn't allocated any dollars for new capital (e.g. sidewalk plows) or extra programming (e.g. enhanced plowing of selected areas using existing equipment).
Now we are going to get another report, this one in June, which might, just, maybe be enough time to put a proposal in for the budget 2019 (but of course no one is thinking about snow in June).
The 2019 budget would then have the possibility allocating for new equipment / new programming which might arrive in time for a pilot in winter 2019-2020 at the earliest, and if all goes well a full roll out in winter of 2020-2021.
I guess hoping for a more decisive and visionary council in an election year is a bit too much to ask. They could at least start with a phased program either focusing on the core and working out or maybe starting with just the arterials and bus routes.
Baby steps I guess!
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - darts - 01-17-2018
(01-17-2018, 11:19 PM)PhilippAchtel Wrote:I am trying to discuss it in good faith since I have been accused of doing a low effort drive by posting. Don't let previous replies to me bias your my attempt to 'correct' that.(01-17-2018, 10:39 PM)darts Wrote: Is there a significant proportion of the population that is impeded? GRT has somewhere between 7-10% ridership. Not sure how many of those riders have mobility issues.
Separately,
With sidewalks cleared those users would still have issues leaving the house since the city wouldn't be clearing their walkways/driveways if they lived in a detached home/townhouse without having to rely on someone who is able bodied enough to shovel the driveway/walkway or if they live in an apartment.
Not saying it isn't a step closer but it looks like to me that these drawbacks aren't considered or discussed (at least I haven't seen any mention of it here) and sidewalk clearing is discussed as if everything will be 100% perfect afterwards.
Reading this, I really strongly doubt you're discussing this in good faith. Not everyone will or can clear their own property to a certain standard without help and thus we shouldn't even bother clearing the public walkways that connect those properties? Can you even imagine someone making that kind of argument about public roadways?
Or can you imagine a system where every property owner was solely responsible for maintaining the public roads adjacent to their property, given what you already admit is their inability to even maintain their own driveway? And yet this is the system we expect students, the elderly, parents with small children, and people with mobility issues to rely upon every day in the winter.
I brought it up because if they can't go on an uncleared sidewalk then they would have trouble getting through their driveway so they would still have the inability to get to their destination, and this has been overlooked as an issue.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - PhilippAchtel - 01-17-2018
(01-17-2018, 11:43 PM)darts Wrote:(01-17-2018, 11:19 PM)PhilippAchtel Wrote: Reading this, I really strongly doubt you're discussing this in good faith. Not everyone will or can clear their own property to a certain standard without help and thus we shouldn't even bother clearing the public walkways that connect those properties? Can you even imagine someone making that kind of argument about public roadways?I am trying to discuss it in good faith since I have been accused of doing a low effort drive by posting. Don't let previous replies to me bias your my attempt to 'correct' that.
Or can you imagine a system where every property owner was solely responsible for maintaining the public roads adjacent to their property, given what you already admit is their inability to even maintain their own driveway? And yet this is the system we expect students, the elderly, parents with small children, and people with mobility issues to rely upon every day in the winter.
I brought it up because if they can't go on an uncleared sidewalk then they would have trouble getting through their driveway so they would still have the inability to get to their destination, and this has been overlooked as an issue.
People with mobility issues can make arrangements for maintaining their own property or live in a property where this is done for them. They cannot make arrangements for every property they pass on the way to their destination, except of course by means of their municipal government, which is precisely the proposal we are discussing.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - danbrotherston - 01-18-2018
(01-17-2018, 11:54 PM)PhilippAchtel Wrote: People with mobility issues can make arrangements for maintaining their own property or live in a property where this is done for them. They cannot make arrangements for every property they pass on the way to their destination, except of course by means of their municipal government, which is precisely the proposal we are discussing.
You're absolutely right, they could live in an apartment building, or a condominium, or in a household with other family members, or with friendly neighbors, or contract to someone.
It's the snow angels program all over again. I clear my neighbours sidewalk, and occasionally their driveway. I'm happy to do it. But I cannot clear every sidewalk they would walk on to get to work, as she walks in the summer, but not in the winter.
This is a strange argument against municipal clearing.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - MidTowner - 01-18-2018
(01-17-2018, 11:43 PM)darts Wrote: I brought it up because if they can't go on an uncleared sidewalk then they would have trouble getting through their driveway so they would still have the inability to get to their destination, and this has been overlooked as an issue.
Can I give you my perspective? I don't have mobility issues, but I have kids too small to walk, and too small to walk much distance at any speed, respectively. If I or my wife goes out with them, they're pushed in a stroller.
I am physically able to clear the walkway to my front door (I have to get this done somehow, if I want to receive mail), and the sidewalk in front of my house, and sometimes my one neighbour's sidewalk.But I can't get around on many uncleared sidewalks if I want to take my kids to the library (or wherever) in winter. I can't get over a ramp with a foot-high pile of snow on it.
I think there's a significant cohort of people with kids who would like to walk places with them, but currently have trouble doing so. I'm just trying to give you the specific perspective of someone who can't go on an uncleared sidewalk, but has no trouble clearing his driveway. As danbrotherston put it, I can clear my front walk, but I can't practically clear every sidewalk on every route I walk.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - Viewfromthe42 - 01-18-2018
It's also not that hard to imagine the person who gets their driveway plowed but doesn't even touch the snow pushed into the sidewalk by that plowing, and then a kid, an able-bodied adult, any person who might theoretically be able to scale the mound, they could still easily have it be icy, or hard snow chunks become dislodged, and then they slip and twist their ankle or worse, fall and break something.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - embe - 01-18-2018
Trying to get my head around the expectation for plowing snow off the sidewalks and how it would be much different than what's currently being done at the bus stops (that a lot of people are speaking negatively about).
Are the proponents envisioning a 24/7 sidewalk clearing service that scrapes right to the concrete and does multiple passes a day to keep it clear? I'll tell you now that's not gonna happen.
I'd actually picture it being worse, since most people would no longer bother clearing their sidewalks, since hey, the sidewalk plow (that we're all paying for) will be coming by... eventually....
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - danbrotherston - 01-18-2018
(01-18-2018, 07:39 PM)embe Wrote: Trying to get my head around the expectation for plowing snow off the sidewalks and how it would be much different than what's currently being done at the bus stops (that a lot of people are speaking negatively about).
Are the proponents envisioning a 24/7 sidewalk clearing service that scrapes right to the concrete and does multiple passes a day to keep it clear? I'll tell you now that's not gonna happen.
I'd actually picture it being worse, since most people would no longer bother clearing their sidewalks, since hey, the sidewalk plow (that we're all paying for) will be coming by... eventually....
Why is a 24/7 sidewalk clearing service so ridiculous an idea. We do it for roads...which are an order of magnitude larger. Yet we can't for sidewalks?
Also, all the data shows that the current situation is entirely broken, you cannot walk a substantial distance without encountering a blocked sidewalk, but every road in the city is clear.
This idea that just because a few sidewalks are immaculate, that sidewalk clearing is good must end. Sidewalks are used for more than just running to your neighbours house.
And what's being done at bus stops is a choice, to hold them to a very low standard.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - MidTowner - 01-18-2018
(01-18-2018, 07:39 PM)embe Wrote: Trying to get my head around the expectation for plowing snow off the sidewalks and how it would be much different than what's currently being done at the bus stops (that a lot of people are speaking negatively about).
Are the proponents envisioning a 24/7 sidewalk clearing service that scrapes right to the concrete and does multiple passes a day to keep it clear? I'll tell you now that's not gonna happen.
I'd actually picture it being worse, since most people would no longer bother clearing their sidewalks, since hey, the sidewalk plow (that we're all paying for) will be coming by... eventually....
I think what most people are referring to when they say that sidewalk clearing should be the responsibility of the city is what city staff put in its report, which is about the same standard as now: sidewalks cleared within 24 hours of the end of a snowfall. That's what other nearby municipalities who clear sidewalks have as their standard.
I don't think anyone is envisioning a "24/7 sidewalk clearing service that scrapes right to the concrete and does multiple passes a day to keep it clear." The service level the city investigated, which it expected to cost ~$26 per household per year, was clearing within 24 hours of the end of a snowfall.
You're right that most property owners wouldn't clear their sidewalks since it would no longer be their responsibility. Many don't now, while it is.
I've shared this before: I grew up in London, and sidewalks were as long as I could remember the city's responsibility, and as I recall they usually did them in a timely fashion. We lived on the same street as a school, and my dad was a weirdo, so he cleared the sidewalk sometimes. Nobody else did. Obviously not, since the city did, usually reasonably quickly.