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+--- Thread: Winter Walking and Cycling (/showthread.php?tid=654)
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - MidTowner - 11-22-2018
I had what I thought was a good case study of the "new" enforcement in Kitchener this week. I say that because the vast majority of sidewalks have been cleared, either by the property owners or just by the intense sunlight we've had periodically through the week. So enforcement staff surely can't be overburdened running around issuing warnings.
I did note one address- 741 King Street West, which is vacant- which on Monday was covered in a thick layer of slippery ice. I called the City to report it Monday morning, all normal. This morning I passed again and the condition was unchanged, so I called again, and asked why it might be the case that no warning had been issued. The person who answered wasn't sure, but surmised that it might have been because we've had some snowfall in the past few days that would give the property owner an additional 24 hours.
In other words, even though that sidewalk is slippery and icy (when nearly every other sidewalk is clear), the miniscule amount of snowfall (which, in most cases, the sun itself has dispatched of) means that the property owner is compliant with the bylaw. Any additional enforcement is irrelevant.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - robdrimmie - 11-22-2018
(11-22-2018, 11:09 AM)MidTowner Wrote: In other words, even though that sidewalk is slippery and icy (when nearly every other sidewalk is clear), the miniscule amount of snowfall (which, in most cases, the sun itself has dispatched of) means that the property owner is compliant with the bylaw. Any additional enforcement is irrelevant.
Yeah. I believe this to be the biggest flaw in any system we have in place. As long as snowfall resets the clock any claims of increased enforcement is a joke because no one is in violation. I think that sidewalks need to be cleared at least once every 24 hours. There may be some extreme exceptions to that, but even if they're covered again in a few minutes remove that bottom snow reduces the likelihood it's going to get tamped down into thick ice.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - danbrotherston - 11-22-2018
(11-22-2018, 11:09 AM)MidTowner Wrote: I had what I thought was a good case study of the "new" enforcement in Kitchener this week. I say that because the vast majority of sidewalks have been cleared, either by the property owners or just by the intense sunlight we've had periodically through the week. So enforcement staff surely can't be overburdened running around issuing warnings.
I did note one address- 741 King Street West, which is vacant- which on Monday was covered in a thick layer of slippery ice. I called the City to report it Monday morning, all normal. This morning I passed again and the condition was unchanged, so I called again, and asked why it might be the case that no warning had been issued. The person who answered wasn't sure, but surmised that it might have been because we've had some snowfall in the past few days that would give the property owner an additional 24 hours.
In other words, even though that sidewalk is slippery and icy (when nearly every other sidewalk is clear), the miniscule amount of snowfall (which, in most cases, the sun itself has dispatched of) means that the property owner is compliant with the bylaw. Any additional enforcement is irrelevant.
I have said this literally a hundred times (and I'm using the dictionary definition of literal here).
I'm so sick of repeating it...I just want to scream at city council...
So I'll leave that aside, the other issue you raise is that the Kitchener Contact Centre has no loop back into bylaw, so you cannot find out about the progress of complaints...so frustrating...they know literally nothing about the bylaw situation.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - tomh009 - 11-22-2018
(11-22-2018, 11:56 AM)robdrimmie Wrote:(11-22-2018, 11:09 AM)MidTowner Wrote: In other words, even though that sidewalk is slippery and icy (when nearly every other sidewalk is clear), the miniscule amount of snowfall (which, in most cases, the sun itself has dispatched of) means that the property owner is compliant with the bylaw. Any additional enforcement is irrelevant.
Yeah. I believe this to be the biggest flaw in any system we have in place. As long as snowfall resets the clock any claims of increased enforcement is a joke because no one is in violation. I think that sidewalks need to be cleared at least once every 24 hours. There may be some extreme exceptions to that, but even if they're covered again in a few minutes remove that bottom snow reduces the likelihood it's going to get tamped down into thick ice.
Yes. If we cannot get city-cleared sidewalks, then at least the bylaw needs to be reworded so that it actually requires the property owner to do some reasonable clearing effort, even if it snows again.
The city doesn't wait to plow the roads until it has stopped snowing for 24 hours, either.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - panamaniac - 11-22-2018
Sorry to have to ask a possibly stupid question, but what does the current bylaw require vis a vis the removal of ice, as opposed to snow, on sidewalks?
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - bpoland - 11-22-2018
It requires clearing down to bare pavement, regardless of whether there's snow or ice.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - Pheidippides - 11-22-2018
You can read the full by-law here:
https://lf.kitchener.ca/WebLinkExt/0/doc/1412716/Page1.aspx
The by-law treats snow and ice the same.
“Every owner or occupant of a building on premises adjoining a highway in the City shall clear away and remove the snow and ice from the sidewalks on such highway in front of, alongside or at the rear of such building within twenty-four hours after the cessation of snowfall. By-law 87- 171, 17 August, 1987.”
I never realized that for the first snow fall of the season you get an additional 24 hours to clear it:
“AND WHEREAS it is hereby set forth as policy that no action shall be taken by the Director of Enforcement under Sections 687.2.2 and 687.2.3 hereof if the failure to comply is a first time occurrence for the particular snow season and that the offender shall be given an additional twenty-four hours to that prescribed in the said Sections within which the snow must be removed.”
I never really understand why the by-law has been interpreted that the clock resets if it starts to snow again. I think the relevant passage is, “…within twenty-four hours after the cessation of a snow-fall…”. I think the key word is “a” snow-fall; it treats the snow falling as separate events.
To me the by-law reads that if it stop snowing you have 24 hours to remove the snow from that particular snow-fall. If it happens to snow again during that 24 period to remove, then you have 24 hours to clear that new snow.
So if we get 10cm and it stops snowing for 12 hours and then we get <1cm the by-law officer would know pretty easily that the original 10cm hasn’t been cleared or not.
I was going to call in a few addresses along Highland the other day that hadn’t removed the big dump we got last Thursday/Friday and had become tamped down ice, but by the time I got to work it had started to snow lightly and I knew that it wasn’t worth my time to call even though it would be clear that there was 5 day old ice vs. 30min old trace snow.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - Spokes - 11-22-2018
(11-22-2018, 11:56 AM)robdrimmie Wrote:(11-22-2018, 11:09 AM)MidTowner Wrote: In other words, even though that sidewalk is slippery and icy (when nearly every other sidewalk is clear), the miniscule amount of snowfall (which, in most cases, the sun itself has dispatched of) means that the property owner is compliant with the bylaw. Any additional enforcement is irrelevant.
Yeah. I believe this to be the biggest flaw in any system we have in place. As long as snowfall resets the clock any claims of increased enforcement is a joke because no one is in violation. I think that sidewalks need to be cleared at least once every 24 hours. There may be some extreme exceptions to that, but even if they're covered again in a few minutes remove that bottom snow reduces the likelihood it's going to get tamped down into thick ice.
What??? Snowfall resets the clock? I had no idea about this. That's insane. There are times where we get 10+ days in a row of snow. What's to stop me from not clearing my sidewalk during that time? Technically Id still be compliant.
Wow.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - danbrotherston - 11-22-2018
Why does nobody have any idea about this? I've ranted excessively on the topic, am I really being ignored.
I literally used the snowfall records from last winter to spell out the number of instances (around 10) that there was no bylaw enforcement for 5-11 days.
Like seriously, I have access to my roof, should I go up there and shout?
I wonder if council similarly ignored my statements, oh never mind, they explicitly told me they did.
Yeah, sorry guys I am utterly incensed about this.
For the record, the reason for the wording of the bylaw is so that it is clear whether a homeowner is in compliance, i.e., they cannot claim that "eh, I cleared the snow but more fell, prove otherwise". Ironically, this doesn't even hold for curb faced sidewalks since the plow may recover, and bylaw I believe will ticket for this...although I wouldn't be totally shocked to hear that they aren't doing that either.
And despite all this extreme level of benefit of the doubt given to property owners, bylaw still managed to write 2000 tickets two winters ago.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - Viewfromthe42 - 11-22-2018
On a different note, are any of the local bike shops good about selling ready-for-winter-commuting bike setups, versus having summer ones you could change to 1x, add fenders to, change tires, etc?
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - danbrotherston - 11-22-2018
(11-22-2018, 01:56 PM)Viewfromthe42 Wrote: On a different note, are any of the local bike shops good about selling ready-for-winter-commuting bike setups, versus having summer ones you could change to 1x, add fenders to, change tires, etc?
I don't know of any who sell bike winter-ready, but Black Arrow Cycles (and others) obviously have summer commuters (rear internal hubs, fenders, racks), where you'd really only need to change the tires... To be honest, I'm not sure if any manufacturer sells bike with winter tires already installed.
And any shop would be happy to change your tires on a new bike.
That's if you think a change of tires is necessary...I do, but plenty of folks just ride the same tire year round.
Also, most of the shops around carry fat bikes, I know some people like those for winter...I think the traction is hard to beat.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - tomh009 - 11-22-2018
(11-22-2018, 02:28 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Also, most of the shops around carry fat bikes, I know some people like those for winter...I think the traction is hard to beat.
I have never ridden one, but is it correct to assume that the dry-pavement pedaling effort would be significantly higher, due to the increased rolling resistance of the fat tires?
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - danbrotherston - 11-22-2018
(11-22-2018, 02:45 PM)tomh009 Wrote:(11-22-2018, 02:28 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Also, most of the shops around carry fat bikes, I know some people like those for winter...I think the traction is hard to beat.
I have never ridden one, but is it correct to assume that the dry-pavement pedaling effort would be significantly higher, due to the increased rolling resistance of the fat tires?
Oh yes, much much higher...they're quite a challenge, and you know, if you're doing a 20k ride to work, its not going to work for you.
On the other hand they roll over ANYTHING...it's kind of neat to ride, if your ride includes unplowed trails, probably no problem for a fat bike, where most other bikes would be a huge struggle.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - Viewfromthe42 - 11-22-2018
I'm thinking of a bike where I could conceivably put on a wider tire (maybe 38c) which has a good center contact patch for high pressure days when the roads and trails are dry, but with some good sidewall treads and maybe spikes for lower pressure days of higher snowfall or flash ice. Come summer, swap on some non-winter rubber.
The fat bike is one of those situations where I can't truly imagine needing it, aside from beating/missing the plowing on MUTs, but I enjoy the thought of taking it into snowy trails.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - clasher - 11-22-2018
(11-22-2018, 03:22 PM)Viewfromthe42 Wrote: I'm thinking of a bike where I could conceivably put on a wider tire (maybe 38c) which has a good center contact patch for high pressure days when the roads and trails are dry, but with some good sidewall treads and maybe spikes for lower pressure days of higher snowfall or flash ice. Come summer, swap on some non-winter rubber.
I think black arrow cycles has some basic hybrid bikes that are 1x8, they might work well for something like this. A bit more money would buy you disc brakes which a lot of people like for winter. A decent set of long fenders would be helpful too... and I know they've got some studded tires hanging up for sale. I don't have any experience riding on studded tires so I dunno what to suggest there.