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+--- Thread: General Suburban Updates and Rumours (/showthread.php?tid=4)
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 09-27-2020
(09-27-2020, 09:17 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:(09-27-2020, 08:47 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Even if the frontyard is completely filled with cars, I assume these homes have back yards, I don't think the suggestion was to have no personal space at all. And I'm not saying that no side yards are ever useful. But the marginal gains of having this space between the homes is...I would agree, very small. Making the homes bigger, if nothing else, would probably provide far more value. Doubly so because the biggest benefit to detached housing (more window space) is not even realized...again, because they are too close.
Well, yes, I can clearly see on Google Maps that these houses have backyards that make the sideyard negligible. The value judgement of a sideyard vs larger home is up to the market to decide (unless zoning is preventing this from happening).
More window space may be your biggest benefit, but if we are comparing detached homes to semis or townhouses, I think you highlighted what most people would see as a larger benefit in your post immediately prior: not having to deal with uncooperative neighbours. Even if condo townhomes provide a better framework for cooperation, if I understand correctly, you are still subject to the decisions of the condo board that you are only a small part of.
I mean, the roof stuff is funny, but in detached housing, one must still deal with other people...especially when pressed up against them so closely.
And yes, if we leave aside zoning, there may be market forces prefering detached housing over townhouses, but it doesn't make it a good market force. If people are choosing a housing form that has effectively the same disadvantages, but with all the benefits of efficiency lost, merely due to social pressure....well...one must be ready to question our social and cultural values.
The market is not magic, contrary to popular belief it does not find the best solution for all values of "best", only those values of best which are easy to convince people of, and it all comes back to people...and we make poor decisions...both as central planners, AND in groups.
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 09-28-2020
(09-27-2020, 09:17 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: Even if condo townhomes provide a better framework for cooperation, if I understand correctly, you are still subject to the decisions of the condo board that you are only a small part of.
An elected condo board (that anyone can run for) -- just like with any of our other political structures (municipal, regional, provincial or federal) or with community groups. You elect representatives to make decisions for you, for the benefit of the community.
Sometimes it doesn't work so well, but then there is always the next election.
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - ijmorlan - 09-28-2020
(09-27-2020, 09:17 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: Well, yes, I can clearly see on Google Maps that these houses have backyards that make the sideyard negligible. The value judgement of a sideyard vs larger home is up to the market to decide (unless zoning is preventing this from happening).
Yes, zoning is most likely preventing this from happening.
There are separate zones for detached, semi-detached, and townhouses. Actually that is an oversimplification but it is enough for my point. I once read of a zone-change application for a townhouse complex. I think it was for the small townhouse development at Weber and East. The site was zoned for townhouses; in order to build the 2-unit block right at the intersection, they had to get a zoning amendment to permit semi-detached. Outrageous. As if the city planners know better than the property owner whether there should be spaces between the units. This was an especially stupid example, but I don’t think it’s anybody’s business whether a property owner builds detached or townhouses (or indeed anything up to a small apartment building, but there might actually be something to discuss on this last point).
Additionally there are front, rear, and side yard setbacks which vary by zone. They are basically arbitrary, don’t accommodate local conditions (you need a zoning amendment for that — very expensive, although to be fair my sense is that small adjustments are relatively easy to get, even if they still drive up the cost of construction), and cannot be waived by the adjacent property owner. What I mean by this is, I think there is something to the idea that my immediate neighbour can’t build right on our common property line; if the area was built as detached, then part of the assumption is that in addition to my backyard, I get to enjoy the light and breeze which comes through the space above my neighbour’s backyard. But if my neighbour and I come to an agreement, how is it the business of anybody else? And in particular, if I own two adjacent properties, I should be able to waive their setbacks against each other and build a semi-detached.
One more comment about common walls: we need better standards for these. There should be a standard to which they can be built which actually does in fact eliminate sound transmission entirely (probably by actually building the two buildings separately so there is an air gap, then closing in the sides and top so airflow doesn’t remove heat from the combined block); then townhouse and apartment developers could advertise this and people could be confident that they don’t have to worry about hearing their neighbours through the walls.
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - plam - 09-28-2020
(09-28-2020, 10:38 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: One more comment about common walls: we need better standards for these. There should be a standard to which they can be built which actually does in fact eliminate sound transmission entirely (probably by actually building the two buildings separately so there is an air gap, then closing in the sides and top so airflow doesn’t remove heat from the combined block); then townhouse and apartment developers could advertise this and people could be confident that they don’t have to worry about hearing their neighbours through the walls.
I've looked at my common wall while doing renos, but didn't know exactly what I was looking at. There is certainly an air gap, but there is no cladding obviously. In general our common wall is fairly good but not perfect.
For some townhouse configurations ceilings/floors are more of an issue.
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 09-28-2020
(09-28-2020, 06:04 PM)plam Wrote:(09-28-2020, 10:38 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: One more comment about common walls: we need better standards for these. There should be a standard to which they can be built which actually does in fact eliminate sound transmission entirely (probably by actually building the two buildings separately so there is an air gap, then closing in the sides and top so airflow doesn’t remove heat from the combined block); then townhouse and apartment developers could advertise this and people could be confident that they don’t have to worry about hearing their neighbours through the walls.
I've looked at my common wall while doing renos, but didn't know exactly what I was looking at. There is certainly an air gap, but there is no cladding obviously. In general our common wall is fairly good but not perfect.
For some townhouse configurations ceilings/floors are more of an issue.
There are generally fire code regulations for common walls and floors, that are usually pretty strong. That's also the reason for the roof edge you see on some (but for some reason, not all) townhouse condos, it's to prevent fire from spreading from one unit to another across the roof.
I suspect this fire rating should provide some sound isolation, but it would be good if there were specific codes for sound insulation as well, not the least because of class issues with townhomes.
That being said, yeah, I can imagine wooden towns without concrete construction, stacked townhomes could have substantial floor noise.
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - ijmorlan - 09-28-2020
(09-28-2020, 07:03 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: There are generally fire code regulations for common walls and floors, that are usually pretty strong. That's also the reason for the roof edge you see on some (but for some reason, not all) townhouse condos, it's to prevent fire from spreading from one unit to another across the roof.
I suspect this fire rating should provide some sound isolation, but it would be good if there were specific codes for sound insulation as well, not the least because of class issues with townhomes.
That being said, yeah, I can imagine wooden towns without concrete construction, stacked townhomes could have substantial floor noise.
Just a single data point (well, 2 data points), but the townhouses I have lived in had common walls made of a single layer of concrete blocks with drywall glued directly on. Excellent sound transmission (which is bad, obviously), although probably OK for fire isolation.
I suspect that year of construction is strongly correlated with method of construction, but I don’t actually know anything about this.
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 09-28-2020
(09-28-2020, 07:49 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:(09-28-2020, 07:03 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: There are generally fire code regulations for common walls and floors, that are usually pretty strong. That's also the reason for the roof edge you see on some (but for some reason, not all) townhouse condos, it's to prevent fire from spreading from one unit to another across the roof.
I suspect this fire rating should provide some sound isolation, but it would be good if there were specific codes for sound insulation as well, not the least because of class issues with townhomes.
That being said, yeah, I can imagine wooden towns without concrete construction, stacked townhomes could have substantial floor noise.
Just a single data point (well, 2 data points), but the townhouses I have lived in had common walls made of a single layer of concrete blocks with drywall glued directly on. Excellent sound transmission (which is bad, obviously), although probably OK for fire isolation.
I suspect that year of construction is strongly correlated with method of construction, but I don’t actually know anything about this.
I'm certainly no building expert, but you're right that probably provides some measure of sound insulation. To be honest, I'm a bit surprised that's a valid form of construction, drywall is a product that cannot touch moisture, while brick/concrete is a pourous material that can transmit water (even from the ground), so I wouldn't think gluing drywall to brick would be ... a good idea.
But you're certainly right, codes change over time (and also location), possibly that was permitted at one point and isn't now (or maybe it isn't even against code and I'm totally wrong here).
I've not lived in a townhome, but am in a concrete apartment building, the walls are drywall over studs over concrete walls, no insulation, and we get very little sound transmission.
Either way, it should evolve.
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - ijmorlan - 09-28-2020
(09-28-2020, 09:16 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:(09-28-2020, 07:49 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: Just a single data point (well, 2 data points), but the townhouses I have lived in had common walls made of a single layer of concrete blocks with drywall glued directly on. Excellent sound transmission (which is bad, obviously), although probably OK for fire isolation.
I suspect that year of construction is strongly correlated with method of construction, but I don’t actually know anything about this.
I'm certainly no building expert, but you're right that probably provides some measure of sound insulation. To be honest, I'm a bit surprised that's a valid form of construction, drywall is a product that cannot touch moisture, while brick/concrete is a pourous material that can transmit water (even from the ground), so I wouldn't think gluing drywall to brick would be ... a good idea.
Actually my point is that it transmits sound just fine. Sound goes directly through the drywall to the blocks and then into the room on the other side of the wall. What is needed is mechanical separation (ideally, a small air gap, together with appropriate sound deadening materials).
I don’t know if there is a problem with moisture. The walls in question are entirely interior so there shouldn’t be any way for moisture to get into them; they’re built on concrete foundations (also interior) and are also closed at the ends and top — the outside walls and roofs are either continuous from one unit to the next or job over/up/down but in any case unless there is a leak there is no way for water to get to the concrete block.
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 09-28-2020
(09-28-2020, 07:49 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: Just a single data point (well, 2 data points), but the townhouses I have lived in had common walls made of a single layer of concrete blocks with drywall glued directly on. Excellent sound transmission (which is bad, obviously), although probably OK for fire isolation.
A concrete block wall with drywall mounted on Z-bars is actually pretty good (STC rating of 52). A common highrise condo setup is drywall on metal studs, which is only STC 39.
Metal is the worst for sound transmission.
Plenty of reading material available for those interested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_transmission_class
https://www.aisc.org/globalassets/modern-steel/steelwise/042009_sounds-of-silence_web.pdf
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - jamincan - 09-29-2020
I live in an older walkup apartment with (I think) concrete floors and concrete block walls between units and the hallway (at least, when I once tried mounting something to one of those walls, I rapidly discovered that there was concrete behind the drywall. Either my neighbours are all very quiet, or it's quite effective at blocking sound transmission. Occasionally I'll hear music or TV noise in the hallway, but never in my apartment.
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 09-29-2020
(09-29-2020, 07:06 AM)jamincan Wrote: I live in an older walkup apartment with (I think) concrete floors and concrete block walls between units and the hallway (at least, when I once tried mounting something to one of those walls, I rapidly discovered that there was concrete behind the drywall. Either my neighbours are all very quiet, or it's quite effective at blocking sound transmission. Occasionally I'll hear music or TV noise in the hallway, but never in my apartment.
I've also had this wonder, if I can't hear my neighbours, does that mean that I'm the noisy one?
Yeah, we can also hear noise from the hallway, doors in a multi-residential towers are intentionally not sealed (hallways are maintained at positive pressure for ventilation), so it's unlikely that could be easily eliminated, but it's not really been a problem, it's only occasional and it's not sustained. We can also hear plumbing noise in the washroom, I feel like that could be fixed, but, it's only in the washrooms, so I don't really care.
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - bgb_ca - 09-29-2020
(09-29-2020, 07:06 AM)jamincan Wrote: I live in an older walkup apartment with (I think) concrete floors and concrete block walls between units and the hallway (at least, when I once tried mounting something to one of those walls, I rapidly discovered that there was concrete behind the drywall. Either my neighbours are all very quiet, or it's quite effective at blocking sound transmission. Occasionally I'll hear music or TV noise in the hallway, but never in my apartment.
My building is the same. I only hear things in the hallway, but no noises from the units next to me or above/below me.
And it makes things like hanging pictures a pain.
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 09-29-2020
(09-29-2020, 10:17 AM)bgb_ca Wrote: And it makes things like hanging pictures a pain.
3M command strips. No need to make holes. They really do work.
https://www.command.com/3M/en_CA/command-ca/
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - bgb_ca - 09-29-2020
(09-29-2020, 10:23 AM)tomh009 Wrote:(09-29-2020, 10:17 AM)bgb_ca Wrote: And it makes things like hanging pictures a pain.
3M command strips. No need to make holes. They really do work.
https://www.command.com/3M/en_CA/command-ca/
Yea, I learned that trick. Good for pictures, not so good for TVs
RE: General Suburban Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 09-29-2020
(09-29-2020, 12:22 PM)bgb_ca Wrote:(09-29-2020, 10:23 AM)tomh009 Wrote: 3M command strips. No need to make holes. They really do work.
https://www.command.com/3M/en_CA/command-ca/
Yea, I learned that trick. Good for pictures, not so good for TVs
No, definitely not for TVs! Then you either need to drill into the concrete blocks or use a stand.