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+--- Thread: Trails (/showthread.php?tid=378)
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RE: Trails - danbrotherston - 11-01-2018
(11-01-2018, 12:14 PM)Spokes Wrote: The ditch would work. We did something similar at our house. Even better would be a french drain if there's something to drain into near by
![[Image: uvs110620-001.jpg]](http://appledrains.com/drains/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/uvs110620-001.jpg)
For either a french drain, or a ditch, there must be some "away" for the water to go. The ground is saturated, it cannot absorb more, so the water will pond.
A french drain can be combined with a drywell, which can provide substantial dispersal and holding capacity, but that takes more space. It can also be connected to existing storm drain systems, but simply digging a trench or french drain will only provide so much extra capacity as dirt is removed.
When you're looking at houses, you're generally simply wanting to move water away from your house, and usually theres' yard space to move it too. I'm not sure how much the right of way extends beyond the trail, but it's a hill on both sides, there isn't a lot of room to store water. Certainly elements like these could have been included, for example, a well designed dry well under the trail probably would provide a lot of capacity to solve this problem, but I don't think it's an easy or cheap fix now.
On the other hand, raising the level of the asphalt by adding another layer would help by raising the level of the path above the water, not require storage for the water. It could still overflow the path, but it would take more water.
RE: Trails - danbrotherston - 11-01-2018
I did get a response from Staff about the IHT.
"The city is aware of the ponding near cherry street. The contractor has been informed and is required to fix the grading at the edge of the trail to prevent ponding on the trail."
I still have my doubts about how much edge grading can do about the flooding, without fixing the larger drainage or raising the trail. Still, it might be better than nothing, and they may have done other fixes while the trail was under construction. We will know this winter.
As for the tree, staff stated the tree was "ripped out of its planting location"...which is unfortunate, staff stated that it would be replaced.
RE: Trails - Spokes - 11-01-2018
If the water is pooling there and not draining, the edge doesn't matter because it'll flow over it.
RE: Trails - clasher - 11-01-2018
It seems like there is room to dig a little ditch (or french drain) at run it down to cherry street so it can drain into the storm drain system.
RE: Trails - danbrotherston - 11-01-2018
Yeah, if they had a storm drain they could dump into, that would work, the problem is grading obviously water only flows downhill, the ponding occurs at a low point, I'm not sure if they could grade it sufficiently to get it to too Cherry, if there is a storm drain there.
RE: Trails - Pheidippides - 11-01-2018
(11-01-2018, 09:46 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Yeah, if they had a storm drain they could dump into, that would work, the problem is grading obviously water only flows downhill, the ponding occurs at a low point, I'm not sure if they could grade it sufficiently to get it to too Cherry, if there is a storm drain there.
I checked that possibility out on my way home. I think they could make it work. It is only 18m from the west side of the trail to the curb on Cherry and IHT ROW and the Cherry St ROW and adjoining so there would be no other property owners involved. There are no catch basins at the end of the circle on Cherry, they are on the east side of the circle, but the slope on Cherry continues to the east so even if a drain pipe just dumped directly on to Cherry it would find its way in to the SWM system eventually - whether it was designed to take additional flow is another question.
I think the other problem would be that they'd probably have to drain the water across the new sidewalk, so basically moving the water from one active transportation route to another.
As for the dead tree, I travel that trail almost daily I never saw it planted. I kept wondering when they were going to come back and finish planting. It looked like it just got forgotten by the crew.
RE: Trails - Pheidippides - 11-02-2018
The other thing I was thinking was that if they simply build up the trail by layering more asphalt on top of the existing trail then the water is just going to get in between the layers, freeze and thaw, and break it apart very quickly.
RE: Trails - danbrotherston - 11-02-2018
(11-02-2018, 08:07 AM)Pheidippides Wrote: The other thing I was thinking was that if they simply build up the trail by layering more asphalt on top of the existing trail then the water is just going to get in between the layers, freeze and thaw, and break it apart very quickly.
This doesn't seem to be a problem in practice, or rather, it's a problem we already live with. Roads and trails are already poured in layers, you can see this currently in Victoria park at the south parking lot the trail passes, they have only one layer of asphalt down, and there is a lip to the section where they have two layers.
RE: Trails - jamincan - 11-02-2018
They might approach it differently for trails, but they always do that for roads. Lay down one layer of asphalt, let the new road bed settle for a year, and then lay down a second layer that will hopefully remain smooth longer.
RE: Trails - danbrotherston - 11-02-2018
(11-02-2018, 08:26 AM)jamincan Wrote: They might approach it differently for trails, but they always do that for roads. Lay down one layer of asphalt, let the new road bed settle for a year, and then lay down a second layer that will hopefully remain smooth longer.
They are approaching it differently in that the first layer isn't being allowed to settle for a year (possibly because there's less settling without car traffic), but there are definitely still two layers, I saw both layers go down.
That being said, depending on scheduling, roads don't always get 1-2 years of settling, King St. in uptown got maybe 3 months.
RE: Trails - Pheidippides - 11-02-2018
I am aware of the layering process of building the roads.
The difference in this case is that on a road the water is funneled off the surface and in to the SWM system before it can get between the layers and regularly have cracks sealed to prevent water from getting in between.
Roads also usually do not have a steady stream of water trying to flow between their layers or pooling next to them for long periods of time.
RE: Trails - tomh009 - 11-02-2018
(11-01-2018, 01:21 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:(11-01-2018, 12:14 PM)Spokes Wrote: The ditch would work. We did something similar at our house. Even better would be a french drain if there's something to drain into near by.
For either a french drain, or a ditch, there must be some "away" for the water to go. The ground is saturated, it cannot absorb more, so the water will pond.
A french drain can be combined with a drywell, which can provide substantial dispersal and holding capacity, but that takes more space. It can also be connected to existing storm drain systems, but simply digging a trench or french drain will only provide so much extra capacity as dirt is removed.
When you're looking at houses, you're generally simply wanting to move water away from your house, and usually theres' yard space to move it too. I'm not sure how much the right of way extends beyond the trail, but it's a hill on both sides, there isn't a lot of room to store water. Certainly elements like these could have been included, for example, a well designed dry well under the trail probably would provide a lot of capacity to solve this problem, but I don't think it's an easy or cheap fix now.
On the other hand, raising the level of the asphalt by adding another layer would help by raising the level of the path above the water, not require storage for the water. It could still overflow the path, but it would take more water.
There is substantial forest/bush next to trail. Is it higher or lower elevation than the trail? If lower, using a ditch can simply allow the water to drain to the lower elevation. If it's not lower, the French drain will still allow much more water to collect in it without pooling on the trail.
Based on the city's comment, there is lower ground and regrading next to the trail will allow the water to flow away from the trail, achieving the same function as a ditch.
RE: Trails - danbrotherston - 11-02-2018
(11-02-2018, 02:02 PM)tomh009 Wrote:(11-01-2018, 01:21 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: For either a french drain, or a ditch, there must be some "away" for the water to go. The ground is saturated, it cannot absorb more, so the water will pond.
A french drain can be combined with a drywell, which can provide substantial dispersal and holding capacity, but that takes more space. It can also be connected to existing storm drain systems, but simply digging a trench or french drain will only provide so much extra capacity as dirt is removed.
When you're looking at houses, you're generally simply wanting to move water away from your house, and usually theres' yard space to move it too. I'm not sure how much the right of way extends beyond the trail, but it's a hill on both sides, there isn't a lot of room to store water. Certainly elements like these could have been included, for example, a well designed dry well under the trail probably would provide a lot of capacity to solve this problem, but I don't think it's an easy or cheap fix now.
On the other hand, raising the level of the asphalt by adding another layer would help by raising the level of the path above the water, not require storage for the water. It could still overflow the path, but it would take more water.
There is substantial forest/bush next to trail. Is it higher or lower elevation than the trail? If lower, using a ditch can simply allow the water to drain to the lower elevation. If it's not lower, the French drain will still allow much more water to collect in it without pooling on the trail.
Based on the city's comment, there is lower ground and regrading next to the trail will allow the water to flow away from the trail, achieving the same function as a ditch.
I believe the trail is in a depression where the railway would have been, but I'm not intimately familiar with all the typography, at some point, it transitions to lower on one side, and I'm not sure where that is, how how much of a grade would be needed to reach it.
RE: Trails - clasher - 11-02-2018
Beyond that piece of bush there's a creek so I would wager the land slopes downward toward the creek... easy enough to run the french drain toward the forest and let the water find its way to the creek through the bush.
RE: Trails - Pheidippides - 11-02-2018
For those not familiar with the spot a rough sketch (from my memory any way):