Waterloo Region Connected
High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - Printable Version

+- Waterloo Region Connected (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com)
+-- Forum: Waterloo Region Works (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=14)
+--- Forum: Transportation and Infrastructure (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25)
+--- Thread: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London (/showthread.php?tid=306)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - ookpik - 11-05-2015

(11-05-2015, 12:34 PM)Canard Wrote: Oh please, do tell, how the Turbo was a "nightmare".  Go on, I'm listening.   Dodgy

What part of "deservedly or not" did you not understand? Wink

I was riffing off the dream metaphor and extended it, appropriately or not. In any case, the Turbo is dead, be it the result of a nightmare or a mercy killing. That's not a fate I'd want to see in whatever rail technology we end up with.

Lighten up. No one here is against vastly improved rail service. No one here is against HSR in principle, providing it's the best solution. And for me, someone who's a bit longer in the tooth than most, it's far more important that it gets built in my lifetime than how sexy it is to rail fanboys Wink


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - plam - 11-05-2015

So here I am sitting on Via Rail train 65 from MTRL to TRTO. Current speed is 149km/h, which is the same speed the Turbo was allowed to run at in normal operation. At that speed, today's train could travel the 541km in 3 hours 36 minutes, which would be totally fine. I do think the Via Rail CEO is correct in saying that we need more frequent departures (the plane goes almost every hour, but not the train) rather than high-speed service. It's already competitive with the plane out of YYZ. Flying out of YTZ is quicker but you still need to leave YUL. And that's if you are as aggressive with boarding deadlines as I am.

I did notice that we dropped to 125km/h briefly. There was a level crossing. But there are more crossings now and we're back at 150km/h. I'm not sure why the average speed for today's service is only 108km/h. There are 11 minutes of stops in the schedule.

The Wikipedia page also says that the fastest segment on the Turbo route was the non-stop Kingston to Guildwood in 102 minutes. Today we're at 116 minutes. Distance is 232km.

(11-05-2015, 01:28 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Can anyone here offer a realistic estimate of what the Kitchener-Toronto travel time could be with GO assuming no level crossings and a dedicated track?  Maybe with fewer stops (an express service similar to the Lakeshore line).  The MP40 should have a top speed of 175 km/h but I don't know how realistic that is with the car sets that GO uses.

I've noticed the GO train hitting about 100 km/h between Guelph and Kitchener. Seems to me we could have sub-1 hour travel times pretty easily. But the GO train is pretty slow within Toronto.

I think it would be good to have cost estimates, but my intuition suggests that having the Kitchener-Toronto train running at 250km/h can't really be worth it in terms of time savings. The other thing that HSRs are trying to do these days, though, is to get faster acceleration. That could help with this service.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - BuildingScout - 11-05-2015

(11-05-2015, 01:58 PM)plam Wrote: So here I am sitting on Via Rail train 65 from MTRL to TRTO. Current speed is 149km/h, which is the same speed the Turbo was allowed to run at in normal operation. At that speed, today's train could travel the 541km in 3 hours 36 minutes, which would be totally fine. I do think the Via Rail CEO is correct in saying that we need more frequent departures (the plane goes almost every hour, but not the train) rather than high-speed service.

But more departures requires a dedicated track, and once you build a dedicated track you might as well go HSR. So we are back to square one.

As I said before, I'd be quite happy with at 200km/h train if the HSR alternative was significantly more expensive. But this does not seems to be the case at all. Of course we won't know for sure until we see the final figures.

p.s. Germany announced a while back that it would convert all their actively used tracks to rails suitable for high speed over the next decade or so, with speed being limited by geographic layout. In certain cases they will straighten the track, in others the train will simply have to decelerate for that portion of the trip.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - plam - 11-05-2015

(11-05-2015, 03:00 PM)BuildingScout Wrote:
(11-05-2015, 01:58 PM)plam Wrote: So here I am sitting on Via Rail train 65 from MTRL to TRTO. Current speed is 149km/h, which is the same speed the Turbo was allowed to run at in normal operation. At that speed, today's train could travel the 541km in 3 hours 36 minutes, which would be totally fine. I do think the Via Rail CEO is correct in saying that we need more frequent departures (the plane goes almost every hour, but not the train) rather than high-speed service.

But more departures requires a dedicated track, and once you build a dedicated track you might as well go HSR. So we are back to square one.

As I said before, I'd be quite happy with at 200km/h train if the HSR alternative was significantly more expensive. But this does not seems to be the case at all. Of course we won't know for sure until we see the final figures.

p.s. Germany announced a while back that it would convert all their actively used tracks to rails suitable for high speed over the next decade or so, with speed being limited by geographic layout. In certain cases they will straighten the track, in others the train will simply have to decelerate for that portion of the trip.

I'd still like to see better figures, but the Via Rail CEO claims that dedicated tracks ($2B) + new trains ($1B) cost $3B in all, plus $1B for electrification, while HSR costs $10B. The passenger estimates are 7M for dedicated tracks and 10M for HSR.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/11/04/high-speed-rail-canada-via-rail-yves-desjardins-siciliano_n_8473342.html

I saw passenger numbers out of YYZ somewhere, and it does seem like there really is a lot of air traffic between YYZ and YUL. I think it was 2M/year?

I also noticed that we slowed down to 100km/h around Brockville. Level crossings, of course. Those slowdowns are probably the main reason we don't make 3h30 for Montreal-Toronto.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - tomh009 - 11-05-2015

(11-05-2015, 03:21 PM)plam Wrote: I'd still like to see better figures, but the Via Rail CEO claims that dedicated tracks ($2B) + new trains ($1B) cost $3B in all, plus $1B for electrification, while HSR costs $10B. The passenger estimates are 7M for dedicated tracks and 10M for HSR.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/11/04/high-speed-rail-canada-via-rail-yves-desjardins-siciliano_n_8473342.html

I saw passenger numbers out of YYZ somewhere, and it does seem like there really is a lot of air traffic between YYZ and YUL. I think it was 2M/year?

I also noticed that we slowed down to 100km/h around Brockville. Level crossings, of course. Those slowdowns are probably the main reason we don't make 3h30 for Montreal-Toronto.

Thanks for the link.  The difference seems huge (not all the new infrastructure spend can go into this single rail corridor), but those might be apples and oranges as the $10B is an earlier study, and $3/4B is a VIA number.  Not sure whether the latter number includes the elimination of level crossings, either.

One note of caution when looking at YYZ-YUL air traffic numbers: there is a lot of connecting traffic, especially YUL pax connecting to an overseas flight in YYZ.  Most of those people would not switch to rail even if we had HSR, simply because AC can sell them an entire (reasonably convenient) journey on a single ticket.


(11-05-2015, 03:21 PM)plam Wrote:
(11-05-2015, 03:00 PM)BuildingScout Wrote: But more departures requires a dedicated track, and once you build a dedicated track you might as well go HSR. So we are back to square one.

The question is whether sufficient funding is available for HSR.  Even with additional federal infrastructure funding, the purse won't be bottomless.  The point several people have made here is that it's better to have good medium-speed rail service than a beautiful concept of HSR that cannot get funded.  Bird in hand and all that.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - BuildingScout - 11-05-2015

(11-05-2015, 03:21 PM)plam Wrote: I'd still like to see better figures, but the Via Rail CEO claims that dedicated tracks ($2B) + new trains ($1B) cost $3B in all, plus $1B for electrification, while HSR costs $10B. The passenger estimates are 7M for dedicated tracks and 10M for HSR.

So he is claiming that HSR rail on the same land, already electrified line costs $6 billion more than regular rail? hmm... interesting.

Quote:I saw passenger numbers out of YYZ somewhere, and it does seem like there really is a lot of air traffic between YYZ and YUL. I think it was 2M/year?

To that we need to add bus traffic, car traffic, existing train traffic and new demand both in end to end trips and points in between. For example there would be thousands of trips a day for people going from Kingston to YYZ, YTZ, YOW or YUL.

What they have found in Germany is that availability of HSR creates traffic. Say for example, many people today refuse to commute 90min to downtown Toronto. If we offer 55min fast train, then maybe we double the number of people who would consider commuting. If we offer 35min service the number doubles yet again. Now it becomes feasible for people to use KW as a dormitory community as well as for working couples where one is employed in KW the other in T.O.

This is what happened in, for example, the Frankfurt-Koln corridor. You see hordes of bankers with their pressed suits in suit bags rushing to take the morning trains into Frankfurt. There are 8 HSR trains between 7am and 9am covering the 220km span between Koln and Frankfurt airport in 50 min, then doubling back into Frankfurt Hbf for a total time of 1hr04min. Some trains have three additional stops in Bonn, Montabaur and Limburg increasing the time by 17 minutes to 1hr21min. This matches the estimate I had given earlier of 5-6min added per stop, including wait time.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - plam - 11-05-2015

(11-05-2015, 04:20 PM)tomh009 Wrote:
(11-05-2015, 03:21 PM)plam Wrote: I'd still like to see better figures, but the Via Rail CEO claims that dedicated tracks ($2B) + new trains ($1B) cost $3B in all, plus $1B for electrification, while HSR costs $10B. The passenger estimates are 7M for dedicated tracks and 10M for HSR.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/11/04/high-speed-rail-canada-via-rail-yves-desjardins-siciliano_n_8473342.html

I saw passenger numbers out of YYZ somewhere, and it does seem like there really is a lot of air traffic between YYZ and YUL. I think it was 2M/year?

I also noticed that we slowed down to 100km/h around Brockville. Level crossings, of course. Those slowdowns are probably the main reason we don't make 3h30 for Montreal-Toronto.

Thanks for the link.  The difference seems huge (not all the new infrastructure spend can go into this single rail corridor), but those might be apples and oranges as the $10B is an earlier study, and $3/4B is a VIA number.  Not sure whether the latter number includes the elimination of level crossings, either.

One note of caution when looking at YYZ-YUL air traffic numbers: there is a lot of connecting traffic, especially YUL pax connecting to an overseas flight in YYZ.  Most of those people would not switch to rail even if we had HSR, simply because AC can sell them an entire (reasonably convenient) journey on a single ticket.

Yeah. I also think that's why there's, for instance, flights from YYZ to Kingston and London. They don't make sense as standalone flights. YYZ is still more of a pain to transfer at than other airports, but it remains a better option than UP to Union Station and then a train. (There are also some destinations which are YUL-specific like Geneva, I think).

The train does seem to maintain 150km/h at level crossings, so I'm suspecting the $3B number does not include elimination of level crossings. I don't know for sure. Level crossings are also terrible.

Now this train is slowing down 13km out of Cobourg and there's a freight train passing us on the right...


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - jamincan - 11-05-2015

The difference in cost might be due to land acquisition. a dedicated line could remain in the existing corridor, but HSR may require a lot of expropriation.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - clasher - 11-05-2015

One thing I would like to see with an HSR or even upgraded electric GO/Via service to YYZ would be an easy transfer to the planned Eglinton crosstown LRT. Even with GO RER it seems to make so much sense.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - ookpik - 11-05-2015

(11-05-2015, 04:36 PM)plam Wrote: Now this train is slowing down 13km out of Cobourg and there's a freight train passing us on the right...
A bit of a digression: In Europe passenger trains generally have priority over freight during days and evenings with freight having priority at night. What a novel concept Wink

Quote:There are also some destinations which are YUL-specific like Geneva, I think
While I'm digressing, at one point AC had YYZ to ZRH exclusively and SR had YUL to GVA exclusively. When I lived in Toronto a Swiss neighbour of mine who travelled to Zurich frequently and hated AC's "service" used to complain that he had to fly to YUL in order to get on a SR flight and then connect to a GVA to ZRH flight.

A significant problem with making connecting flights within Canada when you arrive from overseas is that CBSA requires you to pick up your luggage when you first land in Canada, then schlep it to a check-in counter for the connecting flight, then pick it up again at your final destination. In Europe you can check your luggage through to your ultimate destination. So much more convenient.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - plam - 11-05-2015

(11-05-2015, 06:09 PM)ookpik Wrote:
(11-05-2015, 04:36 PM)plam Wrote: Now this train is slowing down 13km out of Cobourg and there's a freight train passing us on the right...
A bit of a digression: In Europe passenger trains generally have priority over freight during days and evenings with freight having priority at night. What a novel concept Wink

Who would have thought of a novel concept like that. Increasing amounts of freight traffic are putting pressure on the system even in Europe, though. So they're building a new Gotthard tunnel in Switzerland, for instance. Sounds huge and very much underground.

(11-05-2015, 06:09 PM)ookpik Wrote:
Quote:There are also some destinations which are YUL-specific like Geneva, I think
While I'm digressing, at one point AC had YYZ to ZRH exclusively and SR had YUL to GVA exclusively. When I lived in Toronto a Swiss neighbour of mine who travelled to Zurich frequently and hated AC's "service" used to complain that he had to fly to YUL in order to get on a SR flight and then connect to a GVA to ZRH flight.

A significant problem with making connecting flights within Canada when you arrive from overseas is that CBSA requires you to pick up your luggage when you first land in Canada, then schlep it to a check-in counter for the connecting flight, then pick it up again at your final destination. In Europe you can check your luggage through to your ultimate destination. So much more convenient.

Turns out that's no longer true for International to US: that baggage will now be transferred automatically. I've seen this both at YYZ and at YUL. It is still true if you're connecting International to Canada though. Not sure about Canada to International. But sometimes you have to pick up luggage in Europe too; depends on whether your final destination is a Schengen airport or not, I think. I like it best when I have no checked luggage.

GVA to ZRH is only 2.5 hours on a train (278km), but if you're already on planes, sure, why not 3 legs. Probably slower, since you can just catch the next train in GVA but you have to take the flight you're scheduled on, so you can be more aggressive with train connections. And you can take the train right from the airport, of course.

Interestingly, Swiss railways basically don't do discounts for advance purchases. (Well, there are some, but they're not super significant if you have the half-price card). Via Rail moved towards dynamic pricing within the past few years, which is good in some ways but annoying in others. Dynamic pricing is also one of the things I dislike most about Greyhound (among other things) and a big advantage of GO for me. Commuter routes should not be dynamically priced.

Also, I find that Canadians like to bash Air Canada service, but I find it way better than US airlines. I don't think I took the old Swiss, so I can't say.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - MidTowner - 11-05-2015

(11-05-2015, 04:33 PM)BuildingScout Wrote: ...This is what happened in, for example, the Frankfurt-Koln corridor. You see hordes of bankers with their pressed suits in suit bags rushing to take the morning trains into Frankfurt...

This is the common experience in Spain in the years after upgrades to high-speed service. Toledo is now often referred to as a bedroom community of Madrid, 70 kilometres away, but a half hour commute. People even now live in places as far as Valladolid (quite like Cologne and Frankfurt: two hundred kilometres distant but only an hour and ten minutes by train) who need to commute to Madrid either routinely or occasionally.

There will be different levels of induced demand based on different service levels. We can all do our back-of-the-envelope calculations of demand based on 401 trips, air traffic, and current train traffic. But there is travel demand that doesn't exist yet, that will given improved service. A real assessment would be really involved, and I personally am really curious to see what kind of induced demand is anticipated for true HSR, and everything in between.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - KevinL - 11-05-2015

(11-05-2015, 05:49 PM)clasher Wrote: One thing I would like to see with an HSR or even upgraded electric GO/Via service to YYZ would be an easy transfer to the planned Eglinton crosstown LRT. Even with GO RER it seems to make so much sense.

This is explicitly planned for GO - Mount Dennis Station, as it will be called, will be a major transfer point.

I'm not sure it would be a worthwhile stop for HSR.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - Drake - 11-05-2015

With all the talk about Pearson, how does that fit in with the UPX that is currently considered a flop? Would taxpayers buy into building a highspeed line that runs the same route? I would say no. This is a nice idea in fantasy, but the reality is riding a rocket to Union and taking an express train directly from there to the airport is not a burden and the service already exists.

As for Guelph, I think this too is another dream. If someone is not willing to drive 20 minutes or less, seeing as there will be essentially 2 expressway systems from Guelph to Kitchener (the new 7 and 401), I can't see there being an argument for catching a high speed train from Kitchener to Guelph or vice versa. What happened to the tentative plan that opted for a bypass around Guelph? Is that gone or just forgotten?

As a person who has infrequently rode the GO train, it seems that Guelph is already a bottleneck for that system. Getting into their downtown with all the at grade crossings and close proximity to houses etc are a drag on the trains time as it is.

Doesn't adding stops defeat the purpose? Like, if you add Guelph, why not Stratford? Etc.. then Cambridge will start up with the Doug Craig show and on it goes. ..


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - BuildingScout - 11-05-2015

(11-05-2015, 09:15 PM)Drake Wrote: With all the talk about Pearson, how does that fit in with the UPX that is currently considered a flop?

I think it is too early to give a verdict on that. Of course the press will pile on in order to sell newspapers, but give it time so people get used to taking it. Recently a friend who was visiting from abroad took it from Pearson to downtown T.O. and he was very pleased with it.

I agree that Guelph is likely to be bypassed. They would be lucky to get a park'n'ride station southeast of the city.