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High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - Printable Version

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RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - Viewfromthe42 - 05-19-2017

Is the Guelph version proposed to follow the current GO route through downtown, undoubtedly requiring the kind of expropriation people are mistakenly fearing in Preston from ION?


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - KevinL - 05-19-2017

(05-19-2017, 02:07 PM)Viewfromthe42 Wrote: Is the Guelph version proposed to follow the current GO route through downtown, undoubtedly requiring the kind of expropriation people are mistakenly fearing in Preston from ION?

It is. The report is quite clear that the whole Kent Street situation will require big, uncomfortable steps. Of course, that's what an environmental assessment is for.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - DHLawrence - 05-19-2017

How easily could a new station be put in under the existing Union Station approach? The tracks are all on a viaduct.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - KevinL - 05-19-2017

From the report: "One option that has been discussed to add capacity is to build a new four-track, two-platform concourse under the western approach tracks to the station around Simcoe Street." That's about all they say.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - Drake - 05-19-2017

I am traveling on the Ave from Barcelona to Madrid next month. I paid over 100 euros for my ticket in business class. The trip will cover the 624km in about 2.5 hours. I look forward to it. I have not been on a high speed train before.

For comparison, KW to Toronto (Union) about 100km. This is similar to the distance the Ave runs from Barcelona to Tarragona. The prices I have found for that trip range by ticket type and time of day between 21 - 66 Euros. The trip is estimated to take 31-35 minutes.

I have previously commented on the Guelph stop and I will continue to question the wisdom of it. There is not a lot of distance between KW and Guelph. There will be an expressway between the two cities. HSR is about covering long distances quickly. Adding stops doesn't assist that goal. 

Barcelona - Tarragona 31 minutes
KW - Toronto 48 minutes. The Guelph and Pearson stops will add time to the route.

The original plan recommended bypassing Guelph. Can we assume politics have caused this shift?


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - danbrotherston - 05-19-2017

I don't believe the original report made any recommendation regarding Guelph, I believe it gave through, and bypass as options, and said more study was needed.

As for the route, the train you're running on is probably 300+ km/h?  And the original study was for that as well.  This route is planned to be only 250 km/h.  Which makes closer stops more feasible.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - mpd618 - 05-19-2017

Guelph and Pearson help the politics, but if this thing is actually built and there's enough demand for substantial frequencies, they could have express trains.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - timio - 05-19-2017

I've ridden TGV and ICE. Both had select stops within a short distance of each other. And both had long stretches with nothing in the middle as well. As long as it can get up to (reasonable) speed between Kitchener and Guelph it won't feel awkward.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - danbrotherston - 05-19-2017

(05-19-2017, 10:06 PM)timio Wrote: I've ridden TGV and ICE.  Both had select stops within a short distance of each other.  And both had long stretches with nothing in the middle as well.  As long as it can get up to (reasonable) speed between Kitchener and Guelph it won't feel awkward.

Given the estimated time from Guelph to KW is 9 minutes, that's an average of 166 km/h, given it's traveling through the city for much of it, I'm guessing it must get pretty close to top speed in between.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - Markster - 05-19-2017

(05-19-2017, 10:06 PM)timio Wrote: I've ridden TGV and ICE.  Both had select stops within a short distance of each other.  And both had long stretches with nothing in the middle as well.  As long as it can get up to (reasonable) speed between Kitchener and Guelph it won't feel awkward.

Hear hear!

I find too many HSR boosters fall into the trap of wanting fewer and fewer stations, to the point of absurdity. These people want a plane. The point is to serve a large variety of different trips efficiently. And sometimes that means some stations closer than others.

There are people who believe it is so vital for Toronto to Montreal HSR to be fast, that it should skip Ottawa entirely, saving a grand total of 50km off the route. Or they believe we should build a separate 200km of HSR track so that Ottawa can be on a separate spur that doesn't sacrifice those precious 15 minutes of presumably more important peoples' time.

Detouring around Guelph would be very expensive, and passing through without stopping at a station would save minimal time.


To bring in another international example, in Japan, the trip between Tokyo and Osaka is 440 km, and you travel past 15 HSR stations on the way. There is a train that makes all stops, but that's the local, and most only stop at a handful. (timetable). There are some express from Tokyo (suburbs) to Kyoto/Osaka, and there are some that are semi-express that stop at a couple stations on the way. And the semi-express trains don't even all serve the same intermediate stops, service of each station reflects demand.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - DHLawrence - 05-19-2017

Ottawa is an easy fix - stop there on the way to Montreal. I can't imagine it will be that big a detour at 250km/h. Fits in nicely with the move to restore the torn up section of track from Havelock to Smith's Falls(ish) to allow Toronto-Peterborough-Ottawa trains. The line through Peterborough is seriously underutilized; three round trips a week, serving a quarry and the Quaker Oats plant and precious little else. The downside is Kingston gets bypassed, but I suspect fitting high speed along the CPR line will be easier.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - Elmira Guy - 05-19-2017

Not to mention that by not having a Guelph station, the system would be passing up the ridership from a population of well over 150,000 (with surrounding rural areas). That strikes me as counter-intuitive.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - Markster - 05-19-2017

(05-19-2017, 11:28 PM)DHLawrence Wrote: Ottawa is an easy fix - stop there on the way to Montreal. I can't imagine it will be that big a detour at 250km/h.

What I'm saying is that there are people who believe that is simply too much detour. (It's 50 extra km, coming up from Kingston)


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - ijmorlan - 05-19-2017

(05-19-2017, 11:31 PM)Markster Wrote:
(05-19-2017, 11:28 PM)DHLawrence Wrote: Ottawa is an easy fix - stop there on the way to Montreal. I can't imagine it will be that big a detour at 250km/h.

What I'm saying is that there are people who believe that is simply too much detour.  (It's 50 extra km, coming up from Kingston)

12 minutes is too much? I’m having trouble imagining a scenario in which that can be a reasonable position, given the size of Ottawa.


RE: High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London - Markster - 05-19-2017

(05-19-2017, 11:35 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: 12 minutes is too much? I’m having trouble imagining a scenario in which that can be a reasonable position, given the size of Ottawa.

Absolutely unreasonable.
And yet, you can find people of that very position.