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+--- Thread: Walking in Waterloo Region (/showthread.php?tid=189)
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - timc - 12-01-2016
(11-30-2016, 06:55 AM)rangersfan Wrote: The one thing about the city cleared sidewalks is while it would be nice to have them cleared most people are out shoveling their driveway anyway. I know for me if it takes me a half hour to shovel the driveway, the sidewalk is an extra couple of minutes.
I don't take nearly as much care or time on my driveway as I do on the sidewalk. I don't have much trouble driving over some snow to get in my driveway, but I want to be sure the sidewalks are clear for all people.
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 12-01-2016
(12-01-2016, 02:49 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:(12-01-2016, 02:05 PM)MidTowner Wrote: We couldn't do that. Many property owners would opt out. Most of those would meet whatever relatively low standard the municipal government sets for itself, and then we would have a situation where the municipality clears half of the frontages on a street, probably at practically the same cost as clearing them all.
Why do you think that? By opting out you get back maybe one fine payment on your taxes, if that, and in return you’re responsible for clearing after every snowfall and subject yourself to liability to fines for failing. Certainly nobody who pays a snow-clearing company is going to opt out — there is no way the snow clearing company is doing it for less than the opt-out amount.
The vast majority of property owners don't contract out snow removal, they're homeowners who shovel their sidewalks when it snows, and who probably would continue to, and would be happy to get 10 dollars back on their property taxes.
While I don't claim to know how many would take up on the opt-out, if it was more than a handful though, the system would break, the efficiencies and cost savings we get by having the city do it, manifest because the plow can just cruise along and clear every sidewalk, which doesn't work if 1 house on every block opts out.
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 12-01-2016
(12-01-2016, 02:46 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:(12-01-2016, 02:26 PM)Canard Wrote: So now we're organizing how we're going to tattle tale on people who might miss shoveling the sidewalk in front of their house once because of life circumstances? Really?
I'm guessing everyone suggesting this lives in an apartment or doesn't have a driveway or sidewalk of their own to shovel!
My intent is to push the political calculus towards having the city take over sidewalk clearing. It’s indisputably the right thing to do, but how do you convince the political system to do it? My suggestion is somewhat tongue-in-cheek anyhow because I don’t think it’s really likely to find enough volunteers to do the job. The point is that if the city did it, then individuals could stop worrying about clearing their sidewalk entirely and just pay their taxes instead. As long as people are supposed to do it, rigorous enforcement will both encourage people to do it, and simultaneously encourage them to support having the city do it.
Thank you for clarifying this ijmorlan. This has nothing to do with bullying property owners who fail to maintain their property and everything to do with pushing the city to maintain their sidewalks, and that was clear from the entire discussion.
Secondly, yes, Canard is wrong, I shovel quite a distance of sidewalk. And as someone who walks around a lot, most of the problem property owners who habitually don't clear their sidewalks, and it stays so for weeks at a time. Nobody who has an emergency one day and is a day late on clearing their sidewalks get's a ticket from the city because bylaw takes up too three weeks to inspect properties after a snowfall.
The city standards are incredibly lax and this is part of the problem. After snowfall, count on two days before there's even a belief that roads should be cleared, and I'm not talking about side streets, I'm talking about Victoria.
And third, it isn't a small deal when a property owner fails to clear a sidewalk. I've seen elderly people walking up Victoria St. on the road, because the snow isn't cleared, that's a serious danger to people, and for most, it simply traps them in their homes. This is a real problem that's seriously impacting people's lives, and this is why the city should be maintaining the sidewalks.
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - MidTowner - 12-01-2016
(12-01-2016, 02:49 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: Why do you think that? By opting out you get back maybe one fine payment on your taxes, if that, and in return you’re responsible for clearing after every snowfall and subject yourself to liability to fines for failing. Certainly nobody who pays a snow-clearing company is going to opt out — there is no way the snow clearing company is doing it for less than the opt-out amount.
I’m not saying it would be the rational decision, but I do think many people would check the box to get $26 (or however much), to just keep on doing what they’ve been doing. Some of these would do a diligent job, but by their not participating the logic of the city to do it is undermined.
It probably has to be all or nothing. No opt out. Too bad, though. I would like to have the money back that the City spends maintaining the road in front of my house. I’d do a good enough job maintaining it.
[Just in case: the last part was a joke.]
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - Viewfromthe42 - 12-01-2016
Canard, I do live in a condo, as I did previously. Some of my winter walking commutes were in front of single family homes, some were in front of multi-family dwellings, and some were in front of commercial areas (The Keg, and the plazas on King between Conestoga Mall and Northland were notorious for not plowing). Snow shoveling has been with me for a long time from childhood memories of mothers and elderly on my walk to and from school who could not get over or get their stroller over the snow left on the sidewalk. More recently, it's been seeing the blind or mobility-impaired in UpTown, struggling to get through incredibly high traffic sidewalks (the dwelling on the northwest corner of Regina and Bridgeport is notoriously bad for clearing snow). I don't want to slip and fall myself, but it is the plight I see of these people, and the city's lack of enforcement despite repeated complaints, that gets me the most.
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - panamaniac - 12-01-2016
(12-01-2016, 04:06 PM)Chicopee Wrote: I used to live in Guelph, a city that does maintain sidewalks (in theory). I just wanted to point out that taxpayers in Guelph pay for this service, even though residential streets are not considered priority, and only after greater than 8 cm has fallen will you possibly see the sidewalk plow. So on many occasions, although the tax has been paid, people are still out shoveling.
How much is the tax?
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - Pheidippides - 12-01-2016
Maybe someone could make a simple app that uses the GPS in your phone to track your position. One tap starts marking your path as clear, tap again it it flips to marking the path as not clear. Load everyone users data up into a Google map to get a quick and rough map of good and bad areas like the Weather Network's road conditions map. Use that for more targeted enforcement and advocacy. You almost need something like Strava, but that could automatically tell by your drop in pace that you've encounter uncleared conditions/sidewalk sections.
I'm still waiting for Clearpath to make me a Roomba like snow clearing device or perhaps Elon Musk's next big thing will be giant driveway shaped batteries that absorb and store energy all summer and release it on demand over the winter to melt.
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - Chicopee - 12-02-2016
Valid question panamaniac, but I don't know exactly. My old tax bills don't break it down that far. I checked the city website, but only found that 7.1% goes to roads/sidewalks. Not particularly helpful. I will ask my Guelph friends if they have a better idea and advise.
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - darts - 12-06-2016
(12-01-2016, 02:59 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:(12-01-2016, 02:46 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: My intent is to push the political calculus towards having the city take over sidewalk clearing. It’s indisputably the right thing to do, but how do you convince the political system to do it? My suggestion is somewhat tongue-in-cheek anyhow because I don’t think it’s really likely to find enough volunteers to do the job. The point is that if the city did it, then individuals could stop worrying about clearing their sidewalk entirely and just pay their taxes instead. As long as people are supposed to do it, rigorous enforcement will both encourage people to do it, and simultaneously encourage them to support having the city do it.
Thank you for clarifying this ijmorlan. This has nothing to do with bullying property owners who fail to maintain their property and everything to do with pushing the city to maintain their sidewalks, and that was clear from the entire discussion.
Secondly, yes, Canard is wrong, I shovel quite a distance of sidewalk. And as someone who walks around a lot, most of the problem property owners who habitually don't clear their sidewalks, and it stays so for weeks at a time. Nobody who has an emergency one day and is a day late on clearing their sidewalks get's a ticket from the city because bylaw takes up too three weeks to inspect properties after a snowfall.
The city standards are incredibly lax and this is part of the problem. After snowfall, count on two days before there's even a belief that roads should be cleared, and I'm not talking about side streets, I'm talking about Victoria.
And third, it isn't a small deal when a property owner fails to clear a sidewalk. I've seen elderly people walking up Victoria St. on the road, because the snow isn't cleared, that's a serious danger to people, and for most, it simply traps them in their homes. This is a real problem that's seriously impacting people's lives, and this is why the city should be maintaining the sidewalks.
then narc on them, there is a system in place to do so already.
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 12-06-2016
(12-06-2016, 08:16 PM)darts Wrote: ...
then narc on them, there is a system in place to do so already.
First, the system sucks. After a major snowfall, the bylaw department receives hundreds of complaints. I've been told it's officers can take many weeks to visit a site, and then weeks for a follow-up, then weeks more for snow clearing to actually happen. I've had sites I've called in that still weren't cleared until almost 2 months later. That's not a real solution.
Secondly, it doesn't matter, narcing doesn't fix the problem. So long as people don't clear their sidewalks, people will be inconvenienced, endangered, and trapped. Simply punishing those few who happen to generate complaints doesn't problem doesn't make it go away. I thought it would, but it doesn't, year after year, sidewalks aren't cleared. And we shouldn't be caring so much about punishing those responsible as we should be about fixing the problem. A homeowner and complaint based system doesn't fix the problem.
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - MidTowner - 12-08-2016
I just saw this in the Kitchener Post:
"Keep your shovel handy
But citywide sidewalk clearing could make for a referendum "
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - Pheidippides - 12-10-2016
<$30 is a steal. I bet most commercial companies would charge that much per month for just the sidewalk. Anyone had a quote lately? Most rates I see on line are for driveway and sidewalk and are about $500 for the season. People really should evaluate what their time is worth and think collectively for a change. Even if you pay the kid down the street five bucks (less than half of minmum wage) every time we get 5cm (which is about 10 times a season on average) you would still come out ahead using a city based system (and there would still be another 50 snowfalls a year of 0.2cm or more to clear yourself).
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 12-10-2016
I agree it is a steal. So cheap that most might even support it. But there is a flaw in your math. Most homeowners don't pay for clearing. And anyone who does would still need to pay almost as much because they would still need driveways cleared.
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - MidTowner - 12-10-2016
(12-10-2016, 01:07 AM)Pheidippides Wrote: <$30 is a steal. I bet most commercial companies would charge that much per month for just the sidewalk. Anyone had a quote lately? Most rates I see on line are for driveway and sidewalk and are about $500 for the season. People really should evaluate what their time is worth and think collectively for a change. Even if you pay the kid down the street five bucks (less than half of minmum wage) every time we get 5cm (which is about 10 times a season on average) you would still come out ahead using a city based system (and there would still be another 50 snowfalls a year of 0.2cm or more to clear yourself).
That last bit is important. I have paid for snow clearing on properties I own- the last time I did, it was $600 for a forty foot frontage of sidewalk, a small driveway and walkway. But they rarely came. I can't remember what the "trigger" was- when it snowed enough to meet it, they went promptly and cleared it well. But when a half inch fell, they didn't, and the property would have been in contravention of the bylaw unless I went to do the sidewalk myself. I had to fairly often.
That's the real reason why rental properties seem to be bad at clearing snow- even if they have a contract with someone, that someone won't come for every dusting or even modest snowfall. Maybe some services can. Tenants can be made responsible, but that is less logical for multi-unit buildings. For multiplexes too big to have tenants do chores like that, but too small for a professional property manager, I don't see the solution.
I think, if put to a referendum, city responsibility for snow clearing would fail. Not because it isn't a great value to property owners (it would be), but because, judging by how most people carry out their obligation now, they don't judge it important. As a typical rate payer, why vote to pay for something you don't see the value in?
RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - panamaniac - 12-10-2016
I see that the Record had an editorial the other day, supporting council in not deciding not to do sidewalk snow removal, putting the (modest) tax cost in the context of other cost increases coming taxpayers' way. I don't know that I agree with their conclusion, but it does add a little something to the conversation, istm.