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Walking in Waterloo Region - Printable Version

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RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - MidTowner - 11-29-2016

(11-29-2016, 11:51 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: As someone who walks _A LOT_ in the winter, about 99% of the time I go walking, I still encountered at least one sidewalk that was poorly cleared or entirely uncleared.

I'm a pretty able person, so I can deal, but, it's still an unacceptable situation.

The fact is, putting the onus on property owners simply doesn't work, complaints or not.  People just don't complain about it, except probably when their neighbour doesn't do it.  Frankly, I doubt there are many people in the city who do as I do and make a list of uncleared sidewalks everytime I walk somewhere.

This is incredibly frustrating.

My experience has been the same as yours: nearly every single time I walk any distance, there are at least a couple of frontages not cleared. It's very problematic since one improperly cleared stretch of sidewalk can be an impassable barrier trapping someone in his or her home, even if all other property owners are clearing their sidewalks properly.

The point I was making, though, is that it is not a case of staff taking more than a year to study the issue. They did take too long, but they have studied it, and come to a conclusion. That part of their conclusion is to continue to monitor is a positive thing.

I wonder if you're right about people complaining. I do complain, and last year saw more results of the reports I made. But, in previous years, it was almost entirely a waste of my time to call the municipality to complain.


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - timc - 11-29-2016

I would happily pay an additional $26.29 on my property tax bill if it meant that the city would have consistently cleared sidewalks. My time is worth more than that, not to mention the cost of salt.

I guess we need to start registering more official complaints about sidewalks if we want to see action.


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - MidTowner - 11-29-2016

(11-29-2016, 12:41 PM)timc Wrote: I guess we need to start registering more official complaints about sidewalks if we want to see action.

I think that is the right conclusion. Without this happening, the municipal government has to conclude that people are content with the situation as it is.


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 11-29-2016

(11-29-2016, 12:41 PM)MidTowner Wrote: My experience has been the same as yours: nearly every single time I walk any distance, there are at least a couple of frontages not cleared. It's very problematic since one improperly cleared stretch of sidewalk can be an impassable barrier trapping someone in his or her home, even if all other property owners are clearing their sidewalks properly.

The point I was making, though, is that it is not a case of staff taking more than a year to study the issue. They did take too long, but they have studied it, and come to a conclusion. That part of their conclusion is to continue to monitor is a positive thing.

I wonder if you're right about people complaining. I do complain, and last year saw more results of the reports I made. But, in previous years, it was almost entirely a waste of my time to call the municipality to complain.

I've always submitted complaints because I wanted to make it clear the current situation was broken. Frankly, it takes a lot of time, and I'm not going to keep doing it. Instead I'll march down to council and rant at the people there once a month, much more time efficient.


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 11-29-2016

And yes, the anti-tax nonsense is why we can't have nice things. Honestly, I hate that attitude, it's so harmful. And honestly, most of them are ignorant about how much they even pay in taxes.


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - MidTowner - 11-29-2016

(11-29-2016, 12:49 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: And yes, the anti-tax nonsense is why we can't have nice things. Honestly, I hate that attitude, it's so harmful. And honestly, most of them are ignorant about how much they even pay in taxes.

Most of who?


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 11-29-2016

(11-29-2016, 12:50 PM)MidTowner Wrote:
(11-29-2016, 12:49 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: And yes, the anti-tax nonsense is why we can't have nice things.  Honestly, I hate that attitude, it's so harmful.  And honestly, most of them are ignorant about how much they even pay in taxes.

Most of who?
 
I am of course generalizing and feel free to call me out on that, but "who" was referring to those who espouse an extreme anti-tax attitude, identified by use of any number of phrases such as applying the term "tax grab" to everything from tolls too carbon fees.  In my experience most of them don't know how much they pay nor do they understand the difference between a tax and fee.


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - MidTowner - 11-29-2016

(11-29-2016, 08:25 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I am of course generalizing and feel free to call me out on that, but "who" was referring to those who espouse an extreme anti-tax attitude, identified by use of any number of phrases such as applying the term "tax grab" to everything from tolls too carbon fees.  In my experience most of them don't know how much they pay nor do they understand the difference between a tax and fee.

Oh, right. I do know a few people like this. It irks me, too, when they refer to user pay schemes which encourage efficient use as "cash grabs" or whatever, as in your examples of tolls and carbon pricing.

I'm not sure that's the ilk who would be opposed to the municipality clearing the sidewalks, though- the same types who jerk their knees every time they hear the word "tax" seem like the type to be equally aggrieved by the idea of having to use their own resources to care for a public good...


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - DHLawrence - 11-29-2016

I was saying something similar to a Facebook friend this morning. "Cash grab" is usually my cue to stop listening.


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 11-29-2016

(11-29-2016, 09:27 PM)MidTowner Wrote: Oh, right. I do know a few people like this. It irks me, too, when they refer to user pay schemes which encourage efficient use as "cash grabs" or whatever, as in your examples of tolls and carbon pricing.

I'm not sure that's the ilk who would be opposed to the municipality clearing the sidewalks, though- the same types who jerk their knees every time they hear the word "tax" seem like the type to be equally aggrieved by the idea of having to use their own resources to care for a public good...

Hard to say for sure, I do know I've heard many individuals express the belief that the city should clear the sidewalks. They don't seem to clue in that they'd be the ones paying for it, instead they seem to feel entitled to have the city do it for free. Of course, I'm the entitlement generation.

In general though, too many people don't feel a part of the city, or our government, they have an oppositional attitude. It is unfortunate, and I don't think indicative of a healthy society.


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - BuildingScout - 11-30-2016

(11-29-2016, 09:45 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Hard to say for sure, I do know I've heard many individuals express the belief that the city should clear the sidewalks.  They don't seem to clue in that they'd be the ones paying for it, instead they seem to feel entitled to have the city do it for free.  Of course, I'm the entitlement generation.


An important part of the city-cleared sidewalks argument is that it wold be substantially cheaper if done using a city-owned bobcat snowplower.


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - rangersfan - 11-30-2016

The one thing about the city cleared sidewalks is while it would be nice to have them cleared most people are out shoveling their driveway anyway. I know for me if it takes me a half hour to shovel the driveway, the sidewalk is an extra couple of minutes.

However I do agree it's not the nicest when going for a winter walk and having many sidewalks covered with snow.
I don't know what the anticipated snow clearly time would be but I know depending on where you live and work not all areas are cleaned with the same urgency. For example for Kumpf and Randall area of Waterloo the road is rarely plowed.


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 11-30-2016

(11-30-2016, 03:47 AM)BuildingScout Wrote: ...
An important part of the city-cleared sidewalks argument is that it wold be substantially cheaper if done using a city-owned bobcat snowplower.

(11-30-2016, 06:55 AM)rangersfan Wrote: The one thing about the city cleared sidewalks is while it would be nice to have them cleared most people are out shoveling their driveway anyway. I know for me if it takes me a half hour to shovel the driveway, the sidewalk is an extra couple of minutes.

However I do agree it's not the nicest when going for a winter walk and having many sidewalks covered with snow.
I don't know what the anticipated snow clearly time would be but I know depending on where you live and work not all areas are cleaned with the same urgency. For example for Kumpf and Randall area of Waterloo the road is rarely plowed.

I have to agree with rangersfan on this, while the pure economic cost might be less, most people don't perceive it that way, and really for most people it wouldn't be that way at all either.

As for service level, that was one of my thoughts, I lived in London for a long time and their quality of sidewalk clearing was terrible.  Buuuuuuut, what must be remembered is what matters is actually minimum standards, while the average sidewalk might be worse with city clearing, the worst sidewalks will be vastly better.

It really is too bad about this, it really is a shame that having property owners clear sidewalks doesn't work, but it flat out doesn't, but on the other hand, many people who clear their sidewalks may continue to do so.  Growing up, most of my street cleared their sidewalks before the plow came.


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - ijmorlan - 11-30-2016

(11-30-2016, 03:47 AM)BuildingScout Wrote:
(11-29-2016, 09:45 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Hard to say for sure, I do know I've heard many individuals express the belief that the city should clear the sidewalks.  They don't seem to clue in that they'd be the ones paying for it, instead they seem to feel entitled to have the city do it for free.  Of course, I'm the entitlement generation.


An important part of the city-cleared sidewalks argument is that it wold be substantially cheaper if done using a city-owned bobcat snowplower.

Exactly. Right now, property tax consists of a certain amount of money, plus the in-kind requirement to clear the sidewalk. The idea is to eliminate the in-kind requirement and replace it with a small additional money amount on the property tax. The money amount is almost indisputably smaller than the value of the in-kind requirement. The only conceivable counter-argument I can think of is that the snow clearing is part of the property owner’s exercise program or is somehow otherwise actually a benefit for them.

In short, the honest lower-taxes position is for the city to clear the sidewalks.

Or, to simply remove the requirement but I don’t think that’s really a reasonable option at all.

There really isn’t a colourable argument for the status quo at all. The only legitimate question is how thorough a job should the City do? So presumably they would have a small snow plow. Should it be followed by an army of low-rent people with shovels to clean up any small amounts missed by the snow plow? Is there anything else they could do? Should there be an option to have them do ones front walk and/or driveway? How should plowrows be handled? This is where the debate should be, not on a bogus debate about whether the City should be involved at all.


RE: Walking in Waterloo Region - jamincan - 11-30-2016

The City is already responsible for clearing small bits of sidewalks all over the place. As an example, there is a stretch on Laurelwood immediately east of Erbsville that the City is responsible for. I figured this out after it went uncleared for over a month two years ago and I went to the trouble of figuring out who was responsible for it so I could register a complaint. It turned out it was the City who was shirking their duty. These bits of sidewalk are scattered all over the city. Clearing the sidewalks they're responsible for now is possibly the least efficient method possible. Just paying a little bit more to have them clear all the sidewalks makes far more sense to me.