Waterloo Region Connected
Cycling in Waterloo Region - Printable Version

+- Waterloo Region Connected (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com)
+-- Forum: Waterloo Region Works (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=14)
+--- Forum: Transportation and Infrastructure (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25)
+--- Thread: Cycling in Waterloo Region (/showthread.php?tid=186)



RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - tomh009 - 05-25-2017

(05-25-2017, 03:33 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I disagree.  For a strictly recreational trail, in a forested area, which provides no through destinations, I can maybe buy it, but in an urban environment, one with snow, rain, and high traffic, definitely not.  It's also pretty much necessitates you not ride a road bike.  Even my skinny tyred hybrid is pretty unpleasant on gravel trails.  As for walking, I get stones in my shoes all the time.  It can even pose a safety hazard, gravel being rather more slippery.  Worse, gravel migrates onto other surfaces and poses a slipping hazard there too.

I guess I was hardened by walking and riding my bike on hazardous unpaved roads, paths and trails when growing up, as I now have zero issues walking or riding on unpaved surfaces (although I wouldn't ride a bike with 20mm racing tires there).

Anyway, I am NOT suggesting we do this.  I am simply saying that on a personal level I would be very happy with unpaved trails.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Smore - 05-25-2017

(05-25-2017, 08:27 PM)KevinL Wrote: One of the surprising factors on road width around here is fire departments. They're accustomed to their large trucks and insist we build roads that can accommodate them in any situation. It's unbelievable how much influence that has had.

What is the life span of a fire truck?  If its anything like other city vehicles (snow plows for example), based on my anecdotal viewing of council meetings (h/t to Gazzola here, for once...) it's not long at all (+/- 10 yrs)....so, it wouldn't take long to switch a fleet over if the will was there...

...and while I think of it, aren't there curb designs that purposely allow emergency vehicles to mount and dismount easily?


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - darts - 05-25-2017

(05-25-2017, 03:33 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-25-2017, 02:29 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Me, I would happily take gravel over either one of those.  It would reduce costs, too, and should allow us to have more trail for the same budget.

I disagree.  For a strictly recreational trail, in a forested area, which provides no through destinations, I can maybe buy it, but in an urban environment, one with snow, rain, and high traffic, definitely not.  It's also pretty much necessitates you not ride a road bike.  Even my skinny tyred hybrid is pretty unpleasant on gravel trails.  As for walking, I get stones in my shoes all the time.  It can even pose a safety hazard, gravel being rather more slippery.  Worse, gravel migrates onto other surfaces and poses a slipping hazard there too.

Should your bike tires accommodate gravel trails instead of the other way around, there will always be sand, gravel and debris on surfaces at times.

I cannot comment on gravel being a slipping hazard as I don't think I have ever had an encounter like that when walking.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - tomh009 - 05-25-2017

(05-25-2017, 09:33 PM)Smore Wrote: What is the life span of a fire truck?  If its anything like other city vehicles (snow plows for example), based on my anecdotal viewing of council meetings (h/t to Gazzola here, for once...) it's not long at all (+/- 10 yrs)....so, it wouldn't take long to switch a fleet over if the will was there...

15 years is the standard for the City of Waterloo.  Fire trucks get driven much less than other city vehicles.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 05-25-2017

(05-25-2017, 09:37 PM)darts Wrote:
(05-25-2017, 03:33 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I disagree.  For a strictly recreational trail, in a forested area, which provides no through destinations, I can maybe buy it, but in an urban environment, one with snow, rain, and high traffic, definitely not.  It's also pretty much necessitates you not ride a road bike.  Even my skinny tyred hybrid is pretty unpleasant on gravel trails.  As for walking, I get stones in my shoes all the time.  It can even pose a safety hazard, gravel being rather more slippery.  Worse, gravel migrates onto other surfaces and poses a slipping hazard there too.

Should your bike tires accommodate gravel trails instead of the other way around, there will always be sand, gravel and debris on surfaces at times.

I cannot comment on gravel being a slipping hazard as I don't think I have ever had an encounter like that when walking.

I can avoid or be careful on sand and debris when it's occasional, when it's the paving surface it's clearly unavoidable.

As for slipping, I have slid and fallen on sand multiple times while biking (even when on my mountain bike, on paving with sand).  Of course, I haven't while walking, given that I'm an able adult it's probably pretty rare, but my mother in law has fallen on a sandy sidewalk before.

But I'm curious as to what you're suggesting here, do you think gravel paths are acceptable as city urban biking infra?


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - darts - 05-25-2017

(05-25-2017, 09:51 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-25-2017, 09:37 PM)darts Wrote: Should your bike tires accommodate gravel trails instead of the other way around, there will always be sand, gravel and debris on surfaces at times.

I cannot comment on gravel being a slipping hazard as I don't think I have ever had an encounter like that when walking.

I can avoid or be careful on sand and debris when it's occasional, when it's the paving surface it's clearly unavoidable.

As for slipping, I have slid and fallen on sand multiple times while biking (even when on my mountain bike, on paving with sand).  Of course, I haven't while walking, given that I'm an able adult it's probably pretty rare, but my mother in law has fallen on a sandy sidewalk before.

But I'm curious as to what you're suggesting here, do you think gravel paths are acceptable as city urban biking infra?

I must have misread your previous post, I thought you were speaking about slipping on gravel right after talking about walking on it and getting it in your shoes.

I enjoy the crunch and the sound of gravel under my feet when I walk and I also enjoy it while riding. I do use tires that work on with the surface and find it is better for the body. So I guess I do.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Canard - 05-26-2017

(05-25-2017, 08:27 PM)KevinL Wrote: One of the surprising factors on road width around here is fire departments. They're accustomed to their large trucks and insist we build roads that can accommodate them in any situation. It's unbelievable how much influence that has had.

Is there any evidence of this? I'm honestly curious - I've heard this from so many people, but never any official sources, so I have to wonder if it's one of those propagated urban legends or something, or there's actually some weight to it.

i mean, Europe, Asia, etc. have some pretty darn narrow streets. Do they just not have fire trucks, and let buildings on fire burn down?


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - ijmorlan - 05-26-2017

(05-26-2017, 04:33 AM)Canard Wrote:
(05-25-2017, 08:27 PM)KevinL Wrote: One of the surprising factors on road width around here is fire departments. They're accustomed to their large trucks and insist we build roads that can accommodate them in any situation. It's unbelievable how much influence that has had.

Is there any evidence of this?  I'm honestly curious - I've heard this from so many people, but never any official sources, so I have to wonder if it's one of those propagated urban legends or something, or there's actually some weight to it.

i mean, Europe, Asia, etc. have some pretty darn narrow streets.  Do they just not have fire trucks, and let buildings on fire burn down?

No, they have appropriately-sized firetrucks for the context.

I heard about one city whose name I unfortunately cannot remember which was a closely-built medieval place in which a major infrastructure project consisted of clearing a roadway directly through the middle with a width of — wait for it — 1.1m, specifically to allow emergency vehicles to get through. Prior to the project the routes had narrower points than that and were hopelessly tangled (i.e., worse than K-W!).

Here planning mostly consists of enforcing the same rules originally developed for the suburbs (where they aren’t appropriate) through the entire city (where they’re grossly inappropriate), and road and emergency response planning is no exception.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Pheidippides - 05-26-2017

I much prefer a smooth asphalt trail to ride on than the 'clunk-clunk-clunk' of riding over the sidewalk cracks; although as a runner a prefer grass/gravel/dirt. I think Boston has a gravel running paths beside all their paved paths.

While I agree that concrete probably lasts longer it is like anything you kind of get what you pay for and what you put into maintaining it.

So when trails get installed with the lowest grade asphalt, without a proper tamping of the ground, no weed barrier, no asphalt edging, and then gets driven on by vehicles it wasn't intended to support and not patched or sealed to maintain, it really isn't surprising that it breaks down quickly. A sidewalk can also breakdown quickly if not installed or made properly (e.g. too much limestone in the mix, ponding water/heaving, no maintenance, excessive weight, etc.).

I actually suggested to the region a few years ago during their strategic planning public consultation that they look at reducing overbuilt roads as a cost saving measure. Think about a road like Homer Watson between Hoffman and Sterling. There is no reason for it to be that wide; it won't ever carry that capacity of vehicles because it isn't ever going to be connected to Belmont now. So why should we rebuild it to the same width when the time comes and then have to plough for area in winter and maintain all that excessive pavement/infrastructure in the future; saves on capital and operating expenses. Probably lots of examples like that around the region.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - timc - 05-26-2017

On the subject of smooth trails, they have put the top coat in the Laurel Trail at UW and it sure was smooth on my ride this morning! (until I reached Columbia Street, but that will be fixed soon enough)


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 05-26-2017

(05-26-2017, 08:23 AM)Pheidippides Wrote: I actually suggested to the region a few years ago during their strategic planning public consultation that they look at reducing overbuilt roads as a cost saving measure. Think about a road like Homer Watson between Hoffman and Sterling. There is no reason for it to be that wide; it won't ever carry that capacity of vehicles because it isn't ever going to be connected to Belmont now. So why should we rebuild it to the same width when the time comes and then have to plough for area in winter and maintain all that excessive pavement/infrastructure in the future; saves on capital and operating expenses. Probably lots of examples like that around the region.

Sadly this is frustratingly hard to pass.  Even a road diet on a road which is grossly overbuilt sees enormous opposition from people claiming it's a war on cars.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - boatracer - 05-26-2017

This little section of the Devil's Creek trail in Cambridge (from Blenheim Rd to just south of that pond) is now complete with stone dust path and some tree plantings.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/114+Blenheim+Rd,+Cambridge,+ON+N1S+1G1/@43.3608843,-80.3356223,350m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x882c763b8a37b8fb:0x8d0aa4ea46318902!2sDevils+Creek+Dr,+Cambridge,+ON!3b1!8m2!3d43.3690221!4d-80.337584!3m4!1s0x882c76487d1788f5:0xa9ebaebe70a53127!8m2!3d43.3600224!4d-80.3361502

Hadn't been down that way in awhile but was biking with my kids last weekend expecting to come to the chain link fence that was previously there and turn around.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 05-26-2017

(05-26-2017, 10:59 AM)boatracer Wrote: This little section of the Devil's Creek trail in Cambridge (from Blenheim Rd to just south of that pond) is now complete with stone dust path and some tree plantings.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/114+Blenheim+Rd,+Cambridge,+ON+N1S+1G1/@43.3608843,-80.3356223,350m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x882c763b8a37b8fb:0x8d0aa4ea46318902!2sDevils+Creek+Dr,+Cambridge,+ON!3b1!8m2!3d43.3690221!4d-80.337584!3m4!1s0x882c76487d1788f5:0xa9ebaebe70a53127!8m2!3d43.3600224!4d-80.3361502

Hadn't been down that way in awhile but was biking with my kids last weekend expecting to come to the chain link fence that was previously there and turn around.

I actually rode that last fall.  Has it actually had recent work done?  It was "open" in that there wasn't anything actually blocking it, and the fence had an opening that didn't appear to be forced, but the path was...shall we say, unsurfaced.  If it's been improved, that's great news.  Do you know if the entrance to the trail from Blenheim Rd. has been improved?  I searched for it for a while before I was able to find it when I was there.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - plam - 05-26-2017

(05-26-2017, 10:39 AM)timc Wrote: On the subject of smooth trails, they have put the top coat in the Laurel Trail at UW and it sure was smooth on my ride this morning! (until I reached Columbia Street, but that will be fixed soon enough)

The lack of traffic on University (which has been closed) for the past two days has been really great on a bicycle or while walking! It is such a bottleneck. I don't have a lot of good solutions to this, unfortunately. Underpass for cars?


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - boatracer - 05-26-2017

(05-26-2017, 11:09 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-26-2017, 10:59 AM)boatracer Wrote: This little section of the Devil's Creek trail in Cambridge (from Blenheim Rd to just south of that pond) is now complete with stone dust path and some tree plantings.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/114+Blenheim+Rd,+Cambridge,+ON+N1S+1G1/@43.3608843,-80.3356223,350m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x882c763b8a37b8fb:0x8d0aa4ea46318902!2sDevils+Creek+Dr,+Cambridge,+ON!3b1!8m2!3d43.3690221!4d-80.337584!3m4!1s0x882c76487d1788f5:0xa9ebaebe70a53127!8m2!3d43.3600224!4d-80.3361502

Hadn't been down that way in awhile but was biking with my kids last weekend expecting to come to the chain link fence that was previously there and turn around.

I actually rode that last fall.  Has it actually had recent work done?  It was "open" in that there wasn't anything actually blocking it, and the fence had an opening that didn't appear to be forced, but the path was...shall we say, unsurfaced.  If it's been improved, that's great news.  Do you know if the entrance to the trail from Blenheim Rd. has been improved?  I searched for it for a while before I was able to find it when I was there.

It looks like they just finished the work last week as the roller and some other equipment was still up at the entrance at Blenheim.  The edges of the stone dust were a little soft and my youngest almost wiped out.