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+--- Thread: Cycling in Waterloo Region (/showthread.php?tid=186)
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RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - danbrotherston - 02-04-2021
(02-04-2021, 03:45 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: I specifically go out of my way to avoid any roundabouts in the region. I have never felt safe crossing one as a pedestrian. IMO roundabouts with 2 lane exits are incompatible with pedestrian crossings (and cycle crossings if we built those). I'm curious if the Dutch build any 2 lane roundabouts without building a cycling underpass?
This is all slightly off topic, but personally I find that crossing islands exacerbate the yielding right of way problem you are all describing. Not saying it's better to not have the crossings, it's just a different set of problems. Ideally the crossings would just have right of way to remove confusion. More blinking lights like in Victoria Park would be great.
The Dutch generally use grade separation on any roundabout that is more than one lane per exit leg. I'm sure there are counter examples, but that is the most common situation.
Of course, multi-lane roads like that are not as common...as here.
I agree with crossing islands, they make the yielding problem worse. It stems from the ambiguity of our crossings. Many drivers believe they don't have the right of way. This ambiguity is the problem...in some instances, it makes roads safer, but only at low speeds. We have high speeds with right of way ambiguity...like I said, pessimal.
Fun fact, the blinking lights are do not give the right of way, in theory, a driver must stop for pedestrians whether or not the lights are flashing, the lights are only there to enhance attention.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - danbrotherston - 02-04-2021
(02-04-2021, 03:58 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:Quote:As stated in the recent CycleWR State of the Network meeting, they wanted to build crossrides in the roundabout but provincial regulations don't allow them to.
This makes no sense. How far from the roundabout does the crossing have to be before it isn’t part of the roundabout but just a crosswalk, not affected by roundabout regulations? What if you had the roundabout pedestrian crossing, then a 1m gap, then a crossride-equipped crosswalk?
I am not certain there is a specific number here, but I don't think engineers are looking for loopholes. I know they asked the province directly if they would authorize it on a trial basis and they were told no.
There is also harm in moving the crossings away from the roundabout as it increases the travel time for pedestrians, and increase the danger (midblock crossings are more dangerous because the traffic is moving faster, and especially so when somewhat near intersections because traffic may not be visible).
FWIW it doesn't matter anyway, there is currently no way to give cyclists right of way at ANY midblock crossing without putting a traffic control device such as a traffic signal or stop sign on the road that is being crossed. This, I believe, is fixed in the upcoming update to Book 18, but not the roundabout.
In my opinion, the city would have benefitted more, spending the money to reconstruct the geometry of the roundabout, by tightening up the turns and narrowing the lanes, rather than adjusting the crossings in the...in my opinion, fairly minor way they did. I believe that would have made a more meaningful impact on safety, and more truely represented the "dutchness" of dutch roundabouts.
While I have not made secret of a certain level of disdain I have for the traffic engineering profession, I happen to know the engineers and staff involved in the roundabout and unlike most engineers and planners I have encountered, I believe they were doing their best to make a safe and prioritized environment for pedestrians, as well as to push the boundaries of their profession. Although I may still from time to time disagree with their conclusions, I don't question their motives or efforts.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - plam - 02-04-2021
(02-04-2021, 11:34 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Yes, pedestrians have the right of way (not that it matters much). If you are on a bike though, you are legally required to dismount to cross (there is a singular exception in the region...possibly the province....at Huron and Strasburg, which was modified as an experiment to allow cyclists to cross without dismounting, but they still do not have the right of way). Of course, this is an insane statement, and almost nobody dismounts...engineers know this, but it doesn't seem to matter.
Erb & Laurel Trail also has a crossride (automatically activated too). The only remaining complaint is, why isn't it advance-activated based on anticipated travel time upstream.
(02-04-2021, 12:14 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: The common understood meaning is that those with the right of way go first. There is probably nothing illegal about yielding the right of way, but it doesn't mean it isn't against the intended function of the system.
The issue with people yielding the right of way when they have it is that it confounds expectations and is hence more likely to lead to bad outcomes, especially by third parties.
RE: Winter Walking and Cycling - danbrotherston - 02-04-2021
(02-04-2021, 04:58 PM)plam Wrote:(02-04-2021, 11:34 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Yes, pedestrians have the right of way (not that it matters much). If you are on a bike though, you are legally required to dismount to cross (there is a singular exception in the region...possibly the province....at Huron and Strasburg, which was modified as an experiment to allow cyclists to cross without dismounting, but they still do not have the right of way). Of course, this is an insane statement, and almost nobody dismounts...engineers know this, but it doesn't seem to matter.
Erb & Laurel Trail also has a crossride (automatically activated too). The only remaining complaint is, why isn't it advance-activated based on anticipated travel time upstream.
(02-04-2021, 12:14 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: The common understood meaning is that those with the right of way go first. There is probably nothing illegal about yielding the right of way, but it doesn't mean it isn't against the intended function of the system.
The issue with people yielding the right of way when they have it is that it confounds expectations and is hence more likely to lead to bad outcomes, especially by third parties.
Erb & Laurel Trail...not sure what you mean by this, it isn't near a roundabout. And, more, Erb & Laurel Trail is a full pedestrian signal because we have no other way to get cyclists across the road (whether engineers would have used a PXO if it was just pedestrians, probably not, but at least they have the option). Using a full pedestrian signal has significant disadvantages...for one, all modes must be delayed (as you alluded to with the need for an upstream trigger), where as a PXO peds have the right of way immediately, and it delays cars for longer, because of the need for a signal timed to the duration of peds.
Worse, our regional engineers haven't the slightest clue how to properly time pedestrian signals. Not a single engineer at the region has taken the time to think about what different demands peds put on a signal from cars...they just copy verbatim the program for cars.
On yielding the right of way, yes, agree entirely.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - plam - 02-04-2021
Yeah, I was just talking about crossrides in general, not crossrides near roundabouts.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - ac3r - 03-03-2021
On Monday, a cargo e-bike pilot program was launched in the province. I wonder if we'll see any use here: https://www.ontario.ca/page/cargo-e-bike-pilot-program
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - jwilliamson - 03-03-2021
The person driving a cargo e-bike is not permitted to:
[...]
* leave the vehicle in a location that is intended for vehicles or pedestrians (for example, bicycle lane or sidewalk)
Wish they'd require that of all vehicles during the pilot.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - tomh009 - 03-03-2021
(03-03-2021, 03:44 PM)jwilliamson Wrote: The person driving a cargo e-bike is not permitted to:
[...]
* leave the vehicle in a location that is intended for vehicles or pedestrians (for example, bicycle lane or sidewalk)
Wish they'd require that of all vehicles during the pilot.
As far as I know, you are not allowed to park any vehicle in a bicycle lane or sidewalk (unless signed otherwise).
Enforcement, of course, is a whole other discussion.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 03-03-2021
(03-03-2021, 04:19 PM)tomh009 Wrote:(03-03-2021, 03:44 PM)jwilliamson Wrote: The person driving a cargo e-bike is not permitted to:
[...]
* leave the vehicle in a location that is intended for vehicles or pedestrians (for example, bicycle lane or sidewalk)
Wish they'd require that of all vehicles during the pilot.
As far as I know, you are not allowed to park any vehicle in a bicycle lane or sidewalk (unless signed otherwise).
Enforcement, of course, is a whole other discussion.
Enforcement *IS* the actual policy.
Enforcement refuses explicitly and publicly to ticket vehicles involved in commerce (delivery vehicles) when parked illegally, therefore parking in bike lanes or sidewalks is defacto permitted. This is entirely unambiguous.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - tomh009 - 03-03-2021
De facto, yes, it is rarely enforced. And the same will probably be the case for the cargo e-bikes.
But, legally, it is not permitted. Again, the same as for cargo e-bikes.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 03-03-2021
(03-03-2021, 05:51 PM)tomh009 Wrote: De facto, yes, it is rarely enforced. And the same will probably be the case for the cargo e-bikes.
But, legally, it is not permitted. Again, the same as for cargo e-bikes.
No, it is not "rarely enforced" it is explicitly, publicly, and intentionally permitted according to bylaw enforcement. I.e., it's not that they rarely enforce, it's that their official policy is that they do not EVER enforce it. And don't think I'm making this up here, I have bylaw officers on record saying this.
To me, that is by definition permitted. I don't like it, but I haven't found anyone who will care about it. (This is a more philosophical question of what the law actually is, but there is a difference here between hint hint wink wink it's technically not allowed, but bylaw avoids ticketing, and the official and publicly stated policy being that it is not enforced).
Whether it will be or won't be for cargo e-bikes is certainly another question.
Here's where I see the difference:
If you call bylaw about a delivery vehicle parked in a bike lane, if bylaw has an officer respond while the vehicle is still there, even then, they will with 100% certainty not issue a ticket. Again, this is official, publicly stated, explicit policy.
While the antecdants in that sentence are equally unlikely for a cargo ebike parked in a bike lane or sidewalk, (i.e., it probably won't happen that bylaw responds) the subsequent clause (that even in that rare circumstance that they respond, a ticket will not be issue) I do not necessarily think will be true for e-cargo bikes.
Again, obviously hypothetical, it probably won't happen, but if the internet wasn't made for arguing hypotheticals, what is the point.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Acitta - 03-03-2021
(03-03-2021, 06:20 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:(03-03-2021, 05:51 PM)tomh009 Wrote: De facto, yes, it is rarely enforced. And the same will probably be the case for the cargo e-bikes.
But, legally, it is not permitted. Again, the same as for cargo e-bikes.
No, it is not "rarely enforced" it is explicitly, publicly, and intentionally permitted according to bylaw enforcement. I.e., it's not that they rarely enforce, it's that their official policy is that they do not EVER enforce it. And don't think I'm making this up here, I have bylaw officers on record saying this.
To me, that is by definition permitted. I don't like it, but I haven't found anyone who will care about it. (This is a more philosophical question of what the law actually is, but there is a difference here between hint hint wink wink it's technically not allowed, but bylaw avoids ticketing, and the official and publicly stated policy being that it is not enforced).
Whether it will be or won't be for cargo e-bikes is certainly another question.
Here's where I see the difference:
If you call bylaw about a delivery vehicle parked in a bike lane, if bylaw has an officer respond while the vehicle is still there, even then, they will with 100% certainty not issue a ticket. Again, this is official, publicly stated, explicit policy.
While the antecdants in that sentence are equally unlikely for a cargo ebike parked in a bike lane or sidewalk, (i.e., it probably won't happen that bylaw responds) the subsequent clause (that even in that rare circumstance that they respond, a ticket will not be issue) I do not necessarily think will be true for e-cargo bikes.
Again, obviously hypothetical, it probably won't happen, but if the internet wasn't made for arguing hypotheticals, what is the point.
This contrasts with Toronto that has traffic enforcement officers on bicycles actively seeking out and ticketing offenders.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 03-03-2021
(03-03-2021, 07:26 PM)Acitta Wrote:(03-03-2021, 06:20 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: No, it is not "rarely enforced" it is explicitly, publicly, and intentionally permitted according to bylaw enforcement. I.e., it's not that they rarely enforce, it's that their official policy is that they do not EVER enforce it. And don't think I'm making this up here, I have bylaw officers on record saying this.
To me, that is by definition permitted. I don't like it, but I haven't found anyone who will care about it. (This is a more philosophical question of what the law actually is, but there is a difference here between hint hint wink wink it's technically not allowed, but bylaw avoids ticketing, and the official and publicly stated policy being that it is not enforced).
Whether it will be or won't be for cargo e-bikes is certainly another question.
Here's where I see the difference:
If you call bylaw about a delivery vehicle parked in a bike lane, if bylaw has an officer respond while the vehicle is still there, even then, they will with 100% certainty not issue a ticket. Again, this is official, publicly stated, explicit policy.
While the antecdants in that sentence are equally unlikely for a cargo ebike parked in a bike lane or sidewalk, (i.e., it probably won't happen that bylaw responds) the subsequent clause (that even in that rare circumstance that they respond, a ticket will not be issue) I do not necessarily think will be true for e-cargo bikes.
Again, obviously hypothetical, it probably won't happen, but if the internet wasn't made for arguing hypotheticals, what is the point.
This contrasts with Toronto that has traffic enforcement officers on bicycles actively seeking out and ticketing offenders.
Indeed, there is a significant difference there.
I would be curious if someone has studied it though, whether their enforcement has been effective or not, I have my doubts.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Acitta - 03-03-2021
(03-03-2021, 07:49 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:Well, they keep catching people, including delivery vehicles, so there is no shortage of offenders. I don't know if the Twitter posts act as a deterrent or not.(03-03-2021, 07:26 PM)Acitta Wrote: This contrasts with Toronto that has traffic enforcement officers on bicycles actively seeking out and ticketing offenders.
Indeed, there is a significant difference there.
I would be curious if someone has studied it though, whether their enforcement has been effective or not, I have my doubts.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - KevinL - 03-04-2021
The problem with ticketing the vehicles of large corporations is that those fines are simply considered a cost of doing business, and budgeted for. They don't actually serve to reduce the activity of the heaviest offenders.