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Cycling in Waterloo Region - Printable Version

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RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Canard - 02-09-2019

Probably more awkward to drill into an angled surface. And it may be an MTO thing that you can’t have a fixed obstacle in the swept path of the road vehicles (ie the roll curb area).


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Spokes - 02-09-2019

(02-08-2019, 09:07 PM)KevinL Wrote: ICYMI:


Well definitely a step in the right direction.  Just a shame they couldn't get it right in the first place.

Would bollards not be more expensive than just doing a concrete curb in the first place?


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Spokes - 02-09-2019

Waterloo Region considering changes to uptown cycling lanes
Quote:After hearing complaints from the community about the design of the segregated bike lines on King Street in uptown Waterloo, Region of Waterloo staff have proposed several changes to address safety and comfort concerns.

In a letter circulated to area residents and businesses earlier this month, senior project manager Eric Saunderson said the region's Feb. 19 planning and works committee meeting will consider a plan to add additional signage in the area, paint more road markings in the bike lanes, and install flexible posts known as bollards to deter vehicles from parking or stopping in the lanes.

The cost of implementing the design changes along the current stretch of bike lanes, as well as future segments north to University Avenue by 2020, is about $250,000.

"I think the region has done a really good job listening to community feedback," said Tenille Bonoguore, the city councillor for uptown Waterloo.

The cycling lanes stretch from the LRT tracks in the uptown square to Bridgeport Road. While they're visually distinct from the roadway, there currently is no infrastructure physically dividing cyclists, pedestrians and motorists — aside from a row of parked cars on the east side of the road.



RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - ijmorlan - 02-09-2019

(02-09-2019, 02:10 PM)Canard Wrote: Probably more awkward to drill into an angled surface. And it may be an MTO thing that you can’t have a fixed obstacle in the swept path of the road vehicles (ie the roll curb area).

“swept path”? By definition motor vehicles are not supposed to be in the curb area. But sadly I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find that you’re right. People are way too concerned about what happens to some drunkard who drives off the road, and not enough about what happens to their victims on the sidewalk.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - panamaniac - 02-09-2019

(02-09-2019, 03:20 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(02-09-2019, 02:10 PM)Canard Wrote: Probably more awkward to drill into an angled surface. And it may be an MTO thing that you can’t have a fixed obstacle in the swept path of the road vehicles (ie the roll curb area).

“swept path”? By definition motor vehicles are not supposed to be in the curb area. But sadly I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find that you’re right. People are way too concerned about what happens to some drunkard who drives off the road, and not enough about what happens to their victims on the sidewalk.
Although it is true that the street sweepers need to be able to clean the gutters.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Canard - 02-09-2019

Oh wow, Feb 19 is where we learn more about LRT, too. Busy night!

I’m seriously thinking of putting together a PowerPoint and showing them what the signs should look like, with arrows, instead of “Left” and “Right” wording. Maybe they’d be receptive?


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 02-09-2019

(02-09-2019, 11:55 AM)Canard Wrote: I’d far rather clip a flex bollard by far on a bike than a concrete or steel pole. A rigid bollard will break bones or cause death, as you’ve pointed out before with the deaths caused by gates on trails. Flex bollards may cause you to fall if you clip one, but that’s it. You should be riding slowly on those trails anyway, so a tumble will result in minor injuries only. Also, a rigid bollard will not withistand the impact of a car either. It will also not give if you clip it with your handlebars, so it will most certainly cause you to bail. If it’s a flex bollard, you clip it and just keep on going.

I think we could all agree the best solution from the onset would have been a raised curb separation.

I am happy that I don't have the experience of hitting either a steel or a flex bollard, so I cannot say with certainty, I'm not willing to test it either way.

That being said, the experience for cars is far different, the flex bollard is intended to be driven over without damaging the vehicle, steel bollards not so, they will damage a car to some degree, even if they inevitably, get knocked down.  Of course, some steel bollards can stop vehicles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIywj53l-8E  but that's probably overkill for uptown Tongue.

Regardless, the difference isn't really enough to care about I don't think. For all I know it's a maintenance issue.

@Spokes and Canard I totally agree that the best solution would have been a curb, I cannot comprehend the regional engineers obsession with roll curbs.  Their arguments for them, barely hold in uptown, and have zero logic in other locations where they are still insisting on roll curbs.  It would have been the same cost for roll curbs vs. barrier curbs.  There is some staff member, at some high level who is insisting on this...what motivation, I cannot guess.

@Panamaniac They said during the presentation that the exact positioning was still unclear, they said they'd like to attach them to the curb portion at the edge where the curb is level, but were unsure if this would be feasible, as Canard points out, attaching to the rolled portion would be hard.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 02-09-2019

(02-09-2019, 04:38 PM)Canard Wrote: Oh wow, Feb 19 is where we learn more about LRT, too. Busy night!

I’m seriously thinking of putting together a PowerPoint and showing them what the signs should look like, with arrows, instead of “Left” and “Right” wording. Maybe they’d be receptive?

You'd definitely be welcome at council, and this is a really easy correction, they should be receptive too.  Don't have too high hopes though, plenty of low hanging fruit gets left to rot all the time.

I am guessing their intention is to have both words and symbols, where the symbol is the sign positioning, but, they should just use arrows and positioning, IMO.

Is the budget also coming up on Feb 19? I was planning on speaking at that one too, but maybe it's another day.  That would be a busy meeting.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - clasher - 02-09-2019

(02-09-2019, 01:50 PM)panamaniac Wrote:
(02-08-2019, 09:07 PM)KevinL Wrote: ICYMI:

OK, but why not place the bollards on the curb/gutter rather than taking space from the bike path?

The roll curb isn't flat so the standard bollards might point into traffic?


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 02-10-2019

The record has a writeup of the changes:

https://www.therecord.com/news-story/9167916-waterloo-region-considering-changes-to-uptown-cycling-lanes/

Few things....I'm really tired of regional staff claiming "ATAC supports an idea", after presenting a different idea to us, again, they proposed steel bollards, and said they didn't want flex bollards, and also, weren't suggesting a no-stopping zone. This isn't the worst one, because I (mostly) don't care about the changes, but other times, it has been far far more egregious.

Tenille congratulated the region on listening to feedback: "I think the region has done a really good job listening to community feedback," said Tenille Bonoguore, the city councillor for uptown Waterloo."

But I think that's highly generous. This took an enormous amount of advocacy for them to do the study--and I cannot emphasis this enough, the article mentions the parking protected bike lanes, but it ignores official motions from the City of Waterloo, and regional ATAC committees. And it's not like they immediately agreed there were problems, staff repeatedly defended this design both at ATAC and at CoW, arguing it was just fine.

The study was proposed, I believe, because staff did not believe there was a problem, and wanted to prove it, when the results came back, staff were, and I quote, "shocked" to find out that those who actually use the lanes are right about the problems with the lanes. They also refuse to reconsider what most cyclists believe are the biggest design flaws (the roll curbs), and are instead implementing a different improvement--again, I don't care, because I think it will fix the problems, but they're hardly responsive to community feedback.

Lets not sugar coat this, I believe regional staff are a major obstacle to safe biking infra in the region. In this case, they have acknowledged a problem and are proposing to correct it, which is an improvement, when generally they disregard community input and continue to advocate for dangerous designs, but they did not get here on their own, they still had to be pushed very hard.

I'm also shocked by the cost. 250k to put in bollards...how many bollards are we talking here? And keep in mind, if they had used a barrier curb, chances are good, there would be zero added cost. Also worth keeping in mind that the only barely reasonable justification for roll curbs (to allow those with accessibility issues to cross the road anywhere--something that is apparently not needed south of the tracks), ONLY applies in uptown, north of Spring St., there is zero justification for roll curbs, and no reason to incur the extra cost of bollards. There was some hand waving about "consistency" which is absolutely absurd, given the road change greatly, and like...this bike lane is already one of a kind...

Regardless, it's a good news story, but the fight to get here is indicative of so many ingrained problems at the regional level.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Viewfromthe42 - 02-11-2019

I'm sure the bollards are also winter-removed, even though they plow the road and parallel parking separate from the path, and winter has been one of the very problematic spots for parked car infractions, so what will this do for that?


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - panamaniac - 02-11-2019

Danbrotherston: I wonder whether some of your points, above, wouldn’t be useful to present in an op ed response to the Record report?


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 02-11-2019

(02-11-2019, 10:46 AM)Viewfromthe42 Wrote: I'm sure the bollards are also winter-removed, even though they plow the road and parallel parking separate from the path, and winter has been one of the very problematic spots for parked car infractions, so what will this do for that?

That's actually a really good point.

I know the metal bollards weren't intended to be removed, this is a question we should ask about the flex bollards, because if they do plan to remove them,  that's a problem.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - plam - 02-11-2019

(02-11-2019, 11:10 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 10:46 AM)Viewfromthe42 Wrote: I'm sure the bollards are also winter-removed, even though they plow the road and parallel parking separate from the path, and winter has been one of the very problematic spots for parked car infractions, so what will this do for that?

That's actually a really good point.

I know the metal bollards weren't intended to be removed, this is a question we should ask about the flex bollards, because if they do plan to remove them,  that's a problem.

It's not like they plough the bike lanes on, say, Bridgeport.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Canard - 02-11-2019

I don't think you can put metal bollards right next to a road, that's not safe. Can anyone think of any examples where this has been implemented like that?