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+--- Thread: Cycling in Waterloo Region (/showthread.php?tid=186)
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RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Elmira Guy - 07-11-2015
After speaking (drinking) with several cops tonight, I learned that the laws pertaining to bikes on sidewalks is a bylaw rather than part of the Highways Act, and hearing how in fact NO bikes are in fact permitted on sidewalks, I restate my point that this is how it should be.
You can state all you want how bikes should be permitted on sidewalks, but again I say, why should pedestrians be made to step off sidewalks so that cyclists can ride down them? If so, then surely pedestrians have the least ROW of all. Why should I have to leave the sidewalk simply because one (or more) cyclists decide that they would rather use the sidewalk than the road to ride at speed? I'm 6'3 and 260lbs, so I'm not afraid of holding my ground. But I have seen others have to veer onto the grass because cyclists refuse to leave the sidewalk. But apparently those on bikes have the right to do so?
And I'm sorry, but Lincoln isn't that busy. If you can't cope with it on a bike, take GRT or give your foot a push and start walking.
Or do you see it as some sort of hierarchy with pedestrians (foot) at the bottom of the list?
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - ookpik - 07-11-2015
(07-10-2015, 11:52 PM)mpd618 Wrote: having a car or truck or bus fly by you at 60 km/h is scary enough to push many people to the sidewalk.And having a bicycle fly by you at 20km/hr isn't scary enough to push many pedestrians off the sidewalk? And to where?
WADR you need to rethink this attitude, shared by all-too-many cyclists, that they somehow have the right to impose themselves on legal sidewalk users simply because they don't feel safe where they're legally required to ride their bikes.
Please don't make your problem, our problem.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - eizenstriet - 07-11-2015
I confess that I approach bike issues with the mindset of a kid. I guess that’s because the bike has been utilitarian and pleasurable for me since the formative years when I used it to travel to school from the (then) outer limits of Waterloo to downtown Kitchener.
I am watching with interest the growing bicycle culture and the evolution of attendant infrastructure and etiquette. But my own rules of bike conduct are just common kid-sense.
As to sidewalk access, I use it humbly whenever required. For example, a recent work-path from Uptown Waterloo to suburban Kitchener could not avoid crossing over the expressway on Ottawa Street. I do not have a death-wish, so I unapologetically diverted to sidewalk until I reached a tributary community trail. When I met Ottawa-pedestrians, I moved onto the grass well in advance and slowed down ostentatiously in the kid-posture of submission. I have never had anyone give me a dirty look for sidewalk biking.
I can see that bike infrastructure will grow thanks to the noble efforts of cycling activists. But until it reaches fruition, I will create my own etiquette to fill in the gaps, and I don’t think I will give much offense. Any contemporary bike warrior or bike commuter who claims the right to maintain speed and path on a sidewalk will just give us kids a bad name.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - chutten - 07-11-2015
(07-11-2015, 08:11 AM)ookpik Wrote: Please don't make your problem, our problem.
I thought problems concerning transportation were all of our problems. There's only so much infrastructure, and there are so many people. There are few pedestrians, few(er?) cyclists, and many motorists.
How everyone gets what they need and want from our shared infrastructure is everyone's problem, in my opinion.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Canard - 07-11-2015
How about the Saturday morning Speedo guys on road bikes who ride side-by-side on country roads, oblivious to the world around them and refuse to pull over single file when a car is coming up behind them? What's with that?
![[Image: EastOfPoolesville.jpg]](http://bikewashington.org/photos/EastOfPoolesville.jpg)
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Markster - 07-11-2015
I'm a big proponent of decriminalizing sidewalk cycling.
There are just so many windswept streets with nearly unused sidewalks out there, it's ridiculous to ask bikes to use the road when a de facto cycle path exists. There needs to be a proper hierarchy of use defined as well. On the sidewalk, bicycles are the guests, and must yield to pedestrians at all times. I wouldn't be opposed to a sidewalk speed limit either, as a big conflict point is driveways. Bikes need to approach them with extreme caution, as it can be very unexpected for a driver.
(07-11-2015, 03:00 AM)Elmira Guy Wrote: You can state all you want how bikes should be permitted on sidewalks, but again I say, why should pedestrians be made to step off sidewalks so that cyclists can ride down them? If so, then surely pedestrians have the least ROW of all. Why should I have to leave the sidewalk simply because one (or more) cyclists decide that they would rather use the sidewalk than the road to ride at speed?
You repeatedly paint all sidewalk cycling as this fast, no-holds-barred, doesn't-stop-for-anyone stereotype. I know that this is not how I sidewalk-cycle. Painting everyone with this wide brush loses the nuance and believability of your argument. Further, if you insist on criminalizing people for having some sense of self-preservation, then why are you surprised that they are not courteous?
Ultimately, I see the reason why bikes are banned from the sidewalk as an enforceability thing. You can take a glance at a bike and know whether it's breaking the law or not. If a more sane set of rules were introduced, allowing bikes, with appropriate right-of-way, and perhaps maximum speeds in this shared space, then police would probably object at it being nearly unenforceable-- that is to say that it would require judgement and not a black-and-white application or rules.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - ookpik - 07-11-2015
(07-11-2015, 09:40 AM)chutten Wrote: I thought problems concerning transportation were all of our problems.Absolutely, they are.
My point is that cyclists who feel so scared by cars whizzing by them from behind at 60 (or more) km/hr that they switch to sidewalks should think about:
1. How pedestrians feel when cyclists whiz by them from behind at 20 (or more) km/hr.
2. What options that leaves for pedestrians who feel they're being scared off their sidewalks.
3. That cycling on bike lanes (and on roads) is considered a legal activity. Cycling on sidewalks is not.
As a pedestrian I'm open to discussion about how we can share scarce transportation infrastructure and make it safer for us all to get where we need to go.
My objection is to the attitude of some cyclists that because they feel unsafe on the infrastructure that's intended for them that that somehow gives them any legal or moral "right" to use sidewalks. It doesn't.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - ookpik - 07-11-2015
(07-11-2015, 09:56 AM)Canard Wrote: How about the Saturday morning Speedo guys on road bikes who ride side-by-side on country roads, oblivious to the world around them and refuse to pull over single file when a car is coming up behind them? What's with that?
My understanding is that they have a legal right to use part or all of the right lane and that car drivers have a legal responsibility to treat them as any other vehicle using the road. Pulling over or going single file is a courtesy, not a legal requirement.
Added: III. Sharing the road with other road users
Quote:Bicycles and mopeds travelling at a lower speed than other traffic are expected to ride about one metre from the curb or parked cars, or as close as practical to the right-hand edge of the road when there is no curb. However, they can use any part of the lane if necessary for safety, such as to:The third bullet in particular would seem to apply, especially since "too narrow to be shared safely" is so subjective.
• Avoid obstacles such as puddles, ice, sand, debris, rutted or grooved pavement, potholes and sewer grates
• Cross railway or streetcar tracks at a 90° angle
• Discourage passing where the lane is too narrow to be shared safely...
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - BuildingScout - 07-11-2015
(07-11-2015, 09:56 AM)Canard Wrote: How about the Saturday morning Speedo guys on road bikes who ride side-by-side on country roads, oblivious to the world around them and refuse to pull over single file when a car is coming up behind them? What's with that?
If it were a tractor you would go around it as one often has to in country roads and not think about it twice. Why are you so upset about extending the same courtesy to a group of riders?
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - jamincan - 07-11-2015
I'm one of those speedo rural road riders and I'm not apologizing for it. We do a double pace line on slower, less busy country roads or roads with generous shoulders. On busier roads where we would be a major obstruction to traffic, we switch to a single pace line. We specifically ride in these rural areas in order to make as minimal a disruption to motorists as possible and still do our thing. I won't get into the mechanics of it, but there are very legitimate reasons to prefer riding in a double pace line; we're not doing it so that we can chit chat with out neighbour.
If we are taking an entire lane in a busier area, it is almost certainly for safety reasons.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - DHLawrence - 07-11-2015
Why not designate some underused sidewalks as cycle-accessible (maybe paint a marking at each corner or put up a sign) and keep cyclists in the road where sidewalks are too busy?
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - mpd618 - 07-11-2015
(07-11-2015, 03:00 AM)Elmira Guy Wrote: You can state all you want how bikes should be permitted on sidewalks, but again I say, why should pedestrians be made to step off sidewalks so that cyclists can ride down them? ... And I'm sorry, but Lincoln isn't that busy. If you can't cope with it on a bike, take GRT or give your foot a push and start walking. ... Or do you see it as some sort of hierarchy with pedestrians (foot) at the bottom of the list?
1) I'm not saying bikes should be permitted on sidewalks. I am trying to explain what leads to the conflict.
2) I didn't say Lincoln was busy, I said Lincoln was fast. Sharing space on a busy street with cars going 20 km/h is nowhere near as scary as sharing space on an empty street with cars going 60+ km/h.
3) GRT does not serve all trips at all times of day, and frankly, for some people, even GRT is pretty expensive. Walking isn't going to get you across town here. Keep in mind that our more affordable housing tends to be further away from everything.
4) On the sidewalk (at the very least), pedestrians pretty clearly should be at the top of the hierarchy.
(07-11-2015, 08:11 AM)ookpik Wrote: And having a bicycle fly by you at 20km/hr isn't scary enough to push many pedestrians off the sidewalk? And to where?
WADR you need to rethink this attitude, shared by all-too-many cyclists, that they somehow have the right to impose themselves on legal sidewalk users simply because they don't feel safe where they're legally required to ride their bikes.
Please don't make your problem, our problem.
Why are you lecturing me? And why do you think lecturing anyone will solve the problem? I'm not a proponent of people biking by pedestrians at high speed on the sidewalk - it's dangerous but most of all, just not nice. I don't have a problem with people biking in spaces shared with people on foot if they do so with great courtesy to the latter.
(I personally bike on the road or multi-use paths the vast majority of the time, and treat pedestrians with courtesy if I am in shared spaces. We're not talking about me here.)
(07-11-2015, 11:22 AM)ookpik Wrote: My objection is to the attitude of some cyclists that because they feel unsafe on the infrastructure that's intended for them that that somehow gives them any legal or moral "right" to use sidewalks. It doesn't.
Neither our infrastructure nor our laws really treat cycling as a valid mode of transportation. Saying "tough luck if you want to / need to bike" is not a solution to our transportation problems or conflicts.
I don't know if you've noticed, but the discourteous sidewalk cyclists (i.e. the ones who don't give pedestrians a wide berth) don't generally look like they would self-identify as cyclists nor would post in forums like this one. They tend to ride ill-fitting crappy bikes, and don't look particularly happy with their predicament on the street or in life.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - ookpik - 07-11-2015
(07-11-2015, 01:40 PM)mpd618 Wrote: I'm not a proponent of people biking by pedestrians at high speed on the sidewalk - it's dangerous but most of all, just not nice. I don't have a problem with people biking in spaces shared with people on foot if they do so with great courtesy to the latter.My apologies if that's your position. It seemed as if you were trying to justify sidewalk use by cyclists because of fear arising from the inadequacies of bike lanes.
Quote:Neither our infrastructure nor our laws really treat cycling as a valid mode of transportation. Saying "tough luck if you want to / need to bike" is not a solution to our transportation problems or conflicts.That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say that if cyclists have issues with the current infrastructure they need to find solutions, not create new problems for others, i.e. pedestrians, by using sidewalks.
Quote:I don't know if you've noticed, but the discourteous sidewalk cyclists (i.e. the ones who don't give pedestrians a wide berth) don't generally look like they would self-identify as cyclists nor would post in forums like this one. They tend to ride ill-fitting crappy bikes, and don't look particularly happy with their predicament on the street or in life.I dunno. I've been run off sidewalks by families with kids in tow (literally, in some cases.) That hardly fits the stereotype, either the one painted in the snippet nor of parents teaching kids responsible cycling.
I appreciate that the cycling community wants to change/relax the current prohibition against riding on sidewalks. What protocols would you propose for safely sharing sidewalks with pedestrians? [One example: Suppose a pedestrian is walking on a sidewalk. A cyclist approaches her from the rear. How should the cyclist pass her safely?]
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - clasher - 07-11-2015
(07-11-2015, 11:29 AM)BuildingScout Wrote:(07-11-2015, 09:56 AM)Canard Wrote: How about the Saturday morning Speedo guys on road bikes who ride side-by-side on country roads, oblivious to the world around them and refuse to pull over single file when a car is coming up behind them? What's with that?
If it were a tractor you would go around it as one often has to in country roads and not think about it twice. Why are you so upset about extending the same courtesy to a group of riders?
Or a horse-and-buggy? They take up as much room as two cyclists riding abreast. At least if riding side-by-side and a driver has to slow down for 10 seconds to wait for a safe pass it's better than chancing a tight squeeze like most drivers do when it's a solitary cyclist riding to the right of the lane. Most roadies are riding in the mid 30s so it's not such a huge burden to slow down.
(07-11-2015, 01:08 PM)DHLawrence Wrote: Why not designate some underused sidewalks as cycle-accessible (maybe paint a marking at each corner or put up a sign) and keep cyclists in the road where sidewalks are too busy?
There was an article (or op-ed) in the National Post (might have even posted here) of all places suggesting that most sidewalks in this country could be converted to wider multi-use paths that could be reasonably shared. Most people riding bikes around for transport don't get above 20km/h and those that sustain those speeds should ride on the road. I think sidewalk riders in the cores and other high-traffic pedestrian areas should be on the road or they should just get off and walk.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Canard - 07-11-2015
I have no problem with the <20 km/h rider who actually uses their bell and politely waits for an opportune moment to pass. I see lots of those. But it's the speed demons who insist on going 30+ km/h, jumping curbs, swerving around people, second-guessing them that will eventually cause a collision or drive a pedestrian onto the road and get hit by a car.
I have no idea how you would ever enforce bicycle speed limits, though. The OPP generally ignore motorcycles for the same reason, they'll never ticket a 200+ km/h sportbike on 401 because they can't catch them.
Photo radar on the sidewalks?
