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ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Printable Version

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RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - boatracer - 07-08-2019

(07-08-2019, 02:57 PM)MidTowner Wrote: Another thread on reddit claimed that there was a ~40 minute delay to Ion as a result. Not good.

I drove by it and there were 2 maintenance people under the front of the LRV removing the coupler cover.  It then switched tracks and went back to the OMSF. Then there was another delay because the vehicle involved was sitting on the side of King north of Green when a GRT bus tried to make a left from Green to King and couldn't pass.  So it stayed there while the now resuming LRV's had to wait for it to clear the tracks.

During the time it took to clear the tracks a number of trains had to run opposite directions and I saw a 301R bus at one point.

Needless to say it has been a busy day on the radio scanner.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bob_McBob - 07-08-2019

Are there any other intersections with pedestrian crossings like King and Victoria on the route? It seems rather dangerous to put the beg buttons on the other side of the tracks. Apparently you still get a walk signal if someone on the other side of the road has pressed the button, which means pedestrians can cross the intersection on a walk signal and still be struck by a train if they don't check before crossing the tracks first.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4529056,-80.4983813,3a,88.3y,202.81h,73.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGAUDD5cDf_YnJZAQVzKPgQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 07-08-2019

(07-08-2019, 03:36 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Are there any other intersections with pedestrian crossings like King and Victoria on the route? It seems rather dangerous to put the beg buttons on the other side of the tracks. Apparently you still get a walk signal if someone on the other side of the road has pressed the button, which means pedestrians can cross the intersection on a walk signal and still be struck by a train if they don't check before crossing the tracks first.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4529056,-80.4983813,3a,88.3y,202.81h,73.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGAUDD5cDf_YnJZAQVzKPgQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I'm fairly certain that is the only intersection where peds will get a walk signal to walk in front of the train.

Honestly, I have no idea how that even happens, given the utter obsession with regulations (not safety)...I guess there isn't a regulation for that exact scenario, and thus nobody bothered thinking more than that....

Ooh...I'm being mighty cynical against our engineers today.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - taylortbb - 07-08-2019

(07-08-2019, 03:36 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Are there any other intersections with pedestrian crossings like King and Victoria on the route? It seems rather dangerous to put the beg buttons on the other side of the tracks. Apparently you still get a walk signal if someone on the other side of the road has pressed the button, which means pedestrians can cross the intersection on a walk signal and still be struck by a train if they don't check before crossing the tracks first.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4529056,-80.4983813,3a,88.3y,202.81h,73.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGAUDD5cDf_YnJZAQVzKPgQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I think it's the only one on the ION route, but far from the only one in the city. The ION is considered a slip lane there, which doesn't normally get crossing signals. Highland/Belmont is the same design, but with cars rather than LRVs. https://goo.gl/maps/4tcuTmrbsuzPa9iQ8

I believe cars are supposed to yield to pedestrians in a slip lane, I'd assume the same applies to LRVs?

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - JoeKW - 07-08-2019

(07-08-2019, 03:36 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Are there any other intersections with pedestrian crossings like King and Victoria on the route? It seems rather dangerous to put the beg buttons on the other side of the tracks. Apparently you still get a walk signal if someone on the other side of the road has pressed the button, which means pedestrians can cross the intersection on a walk signal and still be struck by a train if they don't check before crossing the tracks first.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4529056,-80.4983813,3a,88.3y,202.81h,73.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGAUDD5cDf_YnJZAQVzKPgQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


Woops!

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 07-08-2019

(07-08-2019, 03:36 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Are there any other intersections with pedestrian crossings like King and Victoria on the route? It seems rather dangerous to put the beg buttons on the other side of the tracks. Apparently you still get a walk signal if someone on the other side of the road has pressed the button, which means pedestrians can cross the intersection on a walk signal and still be struck by a train if they don't check before crossing the tracks first.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4529056,-80.4983813,3a,88.3y,202.81h,73.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGAUDD5cDf_YnJZAQVzKPgQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

There are other places where there is an uncontrolled pedestrian crossing of the LRT. For example, Willis Way just north of Father David Bauer. However, at King and Victoria, the uncontrolled crossings look like they are controlled by traffic lights even though they are not. This is dangerous. It’s not even clear to me who is supposed to have the right of way. It’s not a signalized pedestrian crossover, so I think that means vehicles (presumably including the LRT) have the right of way, but I’m not sure.

Also interesting to look at these locations where the design involves pedestrians walking immediately next to the tracks and crossing when they judge it safe and consider the hysteria around the supposed dangers of crossing the tracks in the Traynor neighbourhood. I know they’re going faster there, but there is also excellent visibility. It’s a very strange inconsistency.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - CuilTard - 07-08-2019

(07-08-2019, 04:14 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(07-08-2019, 03:36 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Are there any other intersections with pedestrian crossings like King and Victoria on the route? It seems rather dangerous to put the beg buttons on the other side of the tracks. Apparently you still get a walk signal if someone on the other side of the road has pressed the button, which means pedestrians can cross the intersection on a walk signal and still be struck by a train if they don't check before crossing the tracks first.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4529056,-80.4983813,3a,88.3y,202.81h,73.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGAUDD5cDf_YnJZAQVzKPgQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

There are other places where there is an uncontrolled pedestrian crossing of the LRT. For example, Willis Way just north of Father David Bauer. However, at King and Victoria, the uncontrolled crossings look like they are controlled by traffic lights even though they are not. This is dangerous. It’s not even clear to me who is supposed to have the right of way. It’s not a signalized pedestrian crossover, so I think that means vehicles (presumably including the LRT) have the right of way, but I’m not sure.

Also interesting to look at these locations where the design involves pedestrians walking immediately next to the tracks and crossing when they judge it safe and consider the hysteria around the supposed dangers of crossing the tracks in the Traynor neighbourhood. I know they’re going faster there, but there is also excellent visibility. It’s a very strange inconsistency.

Don't forget that for a train to be rounding this King/Victoria corner, it had to just stop at the southbound Central station. So to be unaware of a train you would have to walk past Central without seeing it, hearing it stop, open the doors and close them and whatever other assorted chimes it makes. 

IMO, no one should be crossing roads without checking just because the walk sign is on. The danger is no different than a car driver flooring a right turn without yielding when the walk sign is lit. or if a driver going the other way made a left as soon as they got a break in traffic without checking for pedestrians.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jwilliamson - 07-08-2019

(07-08-2019, 05:19 PM)CuilTard Wrote: Don't forget that for a train to be rounding this King/Victoria corner, it had to just stop at the southbound Central station. So to be unaware of a train you would have to walk past Central without seeing it, hearing it stop, open the doors and close them and whatever other assorted chimes it makes.
 
A pedestrian could have been walking along Victoria when they come to the intersection. I agree with the rest of your point, but they don't have to have walked by the station.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 07-08-2019

In a way it is like a slip lane, but in other ways it is not, in this case, you are walking directly towards a pedestrian crossing light, (which is quite possibly on walk), and there is no yield sign for the LRV.

I suspect it is not terribly dangerous, the LRT operator has good visibility, and is traveling very slowly at the time.

But it seems strange when you consider how obsessive the engineers appeared about safety, but it becomes clearer when you see that obsession is about regulations, not safety.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 07-08-2019

(07-08-2019, 06:07 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: … that obsession is about regulations, not safety.

I think you’ve found the core of the issue. For LRT- and non-LRT-related design issues alike.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jeffster - 07-08-2019

(07-08-2019, 01:49 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Both 511 and 512 have been hit by turning drivers so far today.

https://www.reddit.com/r/waterloo/comments/caob9a/two_ion_trains_hit_in_separate_incidents_so_far/?

More Info here: https://www.therecord.com/news-story/9492700-ion-trains-in-two-separate-crashes-on-monday/

Just a reminder of how bad the drivers in KW are.

I was monitoring a 3-way stop down the street from where I live, not even an hour out there, but I counted to 500 vehicles (none bus and motorcycle): Of those cars, 390 didn't come to a complete stop. Of those 110 did stop, all but 5 had no other cars to compete. Of the 93 cars that had no cars to compete with, only 5 stopped. A total of 17 cruisers (police vehicles non-emergency) came to the 3-way stopped, only one actually slowed down to a crawl (not a complete stop), but the other 16 just 'yielded', 15 of those came when there was competing traffic. 3 ambulances came by, all stopped (this included 1 that stopped with no other cars in sight). One emergency vehicle came by, a fire truck, they stopped (as there were other vehicles). 3 City of Kitchener vehicles came by, they all stopped. The all 3 had "traffic", though 2 of those vehicles where turning right and had no competing traffic. Excluding from the above was 27 motorcyclists, only 2 of which slowed down and the rest just blew past the sign. There were 4 GRT busses, excluded from the totals, all stopped --- though for the one bus, it had to stop regardless as the bus stop is close to the stop sign. Of the 9 taxi's that came by, 1 stopped.

My take on the issue then is simple. We're poor drivers. Police are the absolute worst drivers by far. And there is zero enforcement on this matter. And this is why we're seeing the accidents we're seeing. Not because of poor design, but because of bad habits, lack of enforcement, and the police themselves breaking the law 24/7 in non-emergency situations (city vehicles, GRT, and other EMS vehicles all obeyed the traffic signs).

My totals:

531 vehicles (includes busses and motorcycles):
Obedience rate: 21.4% (114/531)
Vehicles (non-government/non-motorcyle): 21.6% (103/476)
All EMS: 19% (4/21)
All gov: 39.3% (11/28)
All gov and EMS MINUS police: 100% (11/11) (City of Kitchener 3/3 and EMS 4/4, GRT 4/4)
Police only: 0% (0/17)
Motorcylists: 0% (0/27) (includes 3 police motorcycles)

And, this is why we have issues.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bob_McBob - 07-08-2019



RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 07-08-2019

(07-08-2019, 07:10 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote:

Wow. I do have to point out that to my knowledge the poster of the video is incorrect in that Ontario is not a “timed stop” jurisdiction — all you have to do is stop, then proceed when it is safe and everybody who has right of way is out of the way. Also when there is truly nobody around (not other traffic, not pedestrians, nobody) I really don’t see any reason why a full stop is any better than almost stopping. But some parts of the video almost look like those photos of traffic in India where everybody just edges forward until the other traffic yields.

The LRT problems, however, clearly stem from a pervasive ignoring of signals of all types.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - CuilTard - 07-08-2019

(07-08-2019, 05:31 PM)jwilliamson Wrote:
(07-08-2019, 05:19 PM)CuilTard Wrote: Don't forget that for a train to be rounding this King/Victoria corner, it had to just stop at the southbound Central station. So to be unaware of a train you would have to walk past Central without seeing it, hearing it stop, open the doors and close them and whatever other assorted chimes it makes.
 
A pedestrian could have been walking along Victoria when they come to the intersection. I agree with the rest of your point, but they don't have to have walked by the station.

Good point. Thank you. I was basing my scenario on the reddit thread that (I assume) spawned this discussion in which the gentleman/woman was walking south.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 07-08-2019

(07-08-2019, 08:37 PM)CuilTard Wrote:
(07-08-2019, 05:31 PM)jwilliamson Wrote:  
A pedestrian could have been walking along Victoria when they come to the intersection. I agree with the rest of your point, but they don't have to have walked by the station.

Good point. Thank you. I was basing my scenario on the reddit thread that (I assume) spawned this discussion in which the gentleman/woman was walking south.

It's also the case that the operator will definitely see (and is looking for) pedestrians at this point, and has a gong, and a horn.

I really don't feel this is actually terribly dangerous, but I do find it ironic and symbolic of our broken transportation engineering field.

Edit: Upon reading the reddit thread, it's also clear that our right of way rules are entirely ambiguous and broken. I liked the Netherlands, where that type of thing has careful attention paid. Not only are there unambiguous pavement markings 100% of the time, the design of the roadway itself shows who has right of way. There are numerous places in our city where you have a sidewalk continue uninterrupted, yet there is a walk sign that in theory must be obeyed. Whoever built those (and there is a brand new one with the LRT) should lose their engineering degree....

Edit 2: Rules are an interesting question, the rules generally have a purpose, and if that purpose is being achieved, that is what is important, in my opinion. However, very often, there are people in our society who believe they know better than the rules, and often don't. Thus, they contradict the goal, while believing themselves to be in the right. The easy solution is to obey the rules all the time, and usually it's the right outcome (although there are plenty of rules which actually contradict their goal, both directly, and as a result of human factors). Drivers who crawl through a stop sign only bug me when they complain about cyclists doing the same thing. Drivers who intentionally endanger pedestrians for their own convenience are by far the bigger problem, just today a driver nearly ran my partner over while crossing in a marked crosswalk, on a green, there was no reason not to see the ped, the driver simply chose to force her to jump out of the way. This probably happens at least hourly at every busy intersection in the city, and nobody cares one iota. Yet we read continual blame for peds when they are hit. Okay, this took a bit of a tangent....sorry.