(12-22-2020, 06:55 PM)jeffster Wrote: Near miss today with a pedestrian and an Ion. Pedestrian was running against the red light, cross several lanes of traffic then right in front of the Ion. If something had happened, I at least have a dash cam that would have been great evidence.

Unsure why so many have a death wish.

(12-21-2020, 05:54 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: And the station would have been closer to the buildings at Fallowfield, and Homer Watson.

(12-21-2020, 05:54 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: As for "the work necessary"...this is the same work that's needed at every single grade separated station everywhere in the world.

(12-21-2020, 05:54 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I will be the first one to argue for ground level stations, they do provide better integration into the pedestrian realm, but in this instance, you're looking at a savings of 4-6 minutes travel time, plus a better street level realm (the current Courtland route is utter trash--partly because of the LRT routing), plus a trade off of better connections to some places, and worse connections to other places, seems like a very strong win.

(12-21-2020, 05:54 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Also, I question some of your numbers, the track in question is only 74 meters from the current station access (remember, street level design is trash), and the bridge pier is only 65 meters. And even if AODA ramps required a switchback (which they don't have, too, they could be accessed by elevator instead) most grade separated stations also have stairs which can be much shorter.  So you're really looking at a 65-70 meter further walk, plus stairs, and again, that's added to the Courtland side, but subtracted from the Fallowfield side.

(12-23-2020, 08:21 PM)jamincan Wrote: This is all speculative, but if they were doing a grade-separated station below Block Line, surely they'd just do stairs and elevators directly from the bridge?

(12-24-2020, 08:27 AM)neonjoe Wrote: I’m guessing that keeping it by the road maximized the developable land available for projects like Vierra Village etc. A diagonal sliver limits what can be built, although it’s been vacant forever.
I’m really of the opinion that rail regulations and ownership of those yards probably limited the choices here.

(12-23-2020, 06:53 PM)Bytor Wrote: Fallowfield is not going to work like you think.

--snip--

Again, see attached map.

(12-27-2020, 07:18 PM)jeffster Wrote:

(12-23-2020, 06:53 PM)Bytor Wrote: Fallowfield is not going to work like you think.

--snip--

Again, see attached map.

Really good summary. I had a hard time visualizing how this would have worked had it been down in the yards, but it would have been a hot mess either way, and not pedestrian friendly at all. My issue that I saw, apart from having to navigate a lot of stair, is that it would not have had a visual presence from the street, which would have made it a security risk for Ion users. Not that you can't be mugged at any of the current stops, but at least you have somewhere to go, and you can be seen.

(12-23-2020, 06:53 PM)Bytor Wrote:

(12-21-2020, 05:54 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: And the station would have been closer to the buildings at Fallowfield, and Homer Watson.

Fallowfield is not going to work like you think.



The tower nearest Block Line is still a 7 minute walk to the nearest corner, putting the furthest tower a 10 minute walk away, and that's assuming there are reasonable entrances on the backsides of them. The near edge Fallowfield is a and 8-9 minute walk, and the intersection of Fallowfield and Joshua is a 10-11 minute walk, effectively beyond the catchment area.

By making people trek up and down these stairs or ramps for access to this alternate station, that distance to the nearest tower becomes an 8 minute walk to that nearest tower, or a 9-10 minute just to get to the near edge of Fallowfield Dr and 11-12 minutes to Joshua, definitely outside the catchment area. You would not be adding anybody from Fallowfield to the catchment area that is not already in it.

Homer Watson is currently a 11 minute walk from the Station, so it isn't even inside the catchment area to begin with, and the alternate station location will similarly make it further away by walking distance

So all you are doing by putting the station down in the little valley beside the track making the trek longer for everybody within the current station catchment area without expanding the catchment area to any new residents or employers.

You've made the station less useful to everybody who lives or works near by, reducing the effective catchment area, all for making the total end-to-end trip time a couple minutes shorter.

(12-21-2020, 05:54 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: As for "the work necessary"...this is the same work that's needed at every single grade separated station everywhere in the world.

It is still extra work here, regardless of whether it's been done elsewhere or not. And extra work costs extra money. In this case for a demonstrable decrease in station utility. Spend more to make it worse.

(12-21-2020, 05:54 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I will be the first one to argue for ground level stations, they do provide better integration into the pedestrian realm, but in this instance, you're looking at a savings of 4-6 minutes travel time, plus a better street level realm (the current Courtland route is utter trash--partly because of the LRT routing), plus a trade off of better connections to some places, and worse connections to other places, seems like a very strong win.

As the map shows, you don't actually get better placement for anybody when you look at the actual distance a pedestrian would have to walk.

(12-21-2020, 05:54 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Also, I question some of your numbers, the track in question is only 74 meters from the current station access (remember, street level design is trash), and the bridge pier is only 65 meters. And even if AODA ramps required a switchback (which they don't have, too, they could be accessed by elevator instead) most grade separated stations also have stairs which can be much shorter.  So you're really looking at a 65-70 meter further walk, plus stairs, and again, that's added to the Courtland side, but subtracted from the Fallowfield side.

Again, see attached map.

(12-27-2020, 09:35 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:

(12-27-2020, 07:18 PM)jeffster Wrote: Really good summary. I had a hard time visualizing how this would have worked had it been down in the yards, but it would have been a hot mess either way, and not pedestrian friendly at all. My issue that I saw, apart from having to navigate a lot of stair, is that it would not have had a visual presence from the street, which would have made it a security risk for Ion users. Not that you can't be mugged at any of the current stops, but at least you have somewhere to go, and you can be seen.

I guess that's why no subway station in the world is a success....

Honestly, this is ridiculous, grade separated stations are expensive, but in no way impossible or difficult to do well. Obviously also possible to do poorly, as are at grade stations, the station at Block Line being an excellent example (it's terrible as is, utterly idiotic), and ironic that you bring up social safety given that the alignment on Block Line has probably the most dangerous situation in the city.

It's bizarre to be having this discussion, one venue over you'll find people explaining how at grade transit is always garbage. I've not taken the extreme view in either direction, instead basing my opinion on context. This bridge is already grade separated, the context leads to a grade separated station, nothing else.

(12-27-2020, 11:51 PM)jeffster Wrote: AODA compliance would have been a nightmare, not only would you need functioning elevators, you'd also need a ramp as back-up.

Quote:Hindsight also suggests that it may have been a risk, with people taking shortcuts and cutting holes in fences, or by-passing fences that would need to have been built to keep people off of the yard tracks. While I have only seen minimal activity in the yards, it is there, and some idiot is bound to be run over by a slow moving train.

(12-27-2020, 11:51 PM)jeffster Wrote: You do know that anyone that wanted to use the Ion from Homer Watson or Fallowfield area would have had to cross the bridge anyway, then backtrack toward Homer Watson and down stairs, a ramp, or an elevator. Not sure how you figured it would be closer to them.