Waterloo Region Connected
ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Printable Version

+- Waterloo Region Connected (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com)
+-- Forum: Waterloo Region Works (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=14)
+--- Forum: Transportation and Infrastructure (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25)
+--- Thread: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit (/showthread.php?tid=14)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 918 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 951 952 953 954 955 956 957 958 959 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 968 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 979 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 1041 1042 1043 1044 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 1050 1051 1052 1053 1054 1055 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 1109 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 1117 1118 1119 1120 1121 1122 1123 1124 1125 1126 1127 1128 1129 1130 1131 1132 1133 1134 1135 1136 1137 1138 1139 1140 1141 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 1149 1150 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - plam - 12-11-2020

(12-11-2020, 08:38 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(12-11-2020, 08:20 PM)plam Wrote: I might suggest some regulatory capture. Usually a good bet.

Who has captured...bad rail regulations aren't good for anyone I would think.

Usually it's the people who benefit from the status quo... freight companies who don't want to spend money upgrading their systems and want to keep out competitors?

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - tomh009 - 12-11-2020

(12-11-2020, 12:43 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: But ultimately, I don't know how you end up with regulations like for airplanes, which seem to be largely well designed and evidence based.

See Exhibit A: FAA certification of the Boeing 737 MAX. The process was neither well-designed nor evidence-based. As a result, hundreds of people died.

The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 12-11-2020

(12-11-2020, 04:14 PM)KevinL Wrote:
(12-11-2020, 11:51 AM)ijmorlan Wrote:  I don’t understand how passenger trains could need to slow to 25mph while it’s still considered perfectly safe for freight to blow through at 125mph.

It's perfectly understandable - freight goods are not human lives. In essence, there was a fractionally higher risk of derailment or other incident, enough that it could be seriously deadly to a train packed with people - but the risk is economic, not human, with goods and does not require a change to limits.

OK, but 5 times as fast?

I can see how different trains might need to have slightly different speed limits; let’s just say up to a factor of 2 maybe. But 5 times?

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 12-12-2020

(12-11-2020, 10:23 PM)tomh009 Wrote:
(12-11-2020, 12:43 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: But ultimately, I don't know how you end up with regulations like for airplanes, which seem to be largely well designed and evidence based.

See Exhibit A: FAA certification of the Boeing 737 MAX. The process was neither well-designed nor evidence-based. As a result, hundreds of people died.

The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.

The FAA certification of the 737 MAX was flawed. Those flaws have been studied, and are working to be corrected. Hundreds of people died, or, approximately the same number of people who died as a result of cars in the past 2-3 hours.  Even if we just look at Canada, you're looking at the last month or two of road deaths.

This is the kind of exception which proves the rule, yes, our systems are failable, but some of our systems are actually working reasonably well, and improving, while others are a complete failure (although I won't argue that road safety isn't improving in *some* places).

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jamincan - 12-12-2020

(12-12-2020, 12:15 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(12-11-2020, 10:23 PM)tomh009 Wrote: See Exhibit A: FAA certification of the Boeing 737 MAX. The process was neither well-designed nor evidence-based. As a result, hundreds of people died.

The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.

The FAA certification of the 737 MAX was flawed. Those flaws have been studied, and are working to be corrected. Hundreds of people died, or, approximately the same number of people who died as a result of cars in the past 2-3 hours.  Even if we just look at Canada, you're looking at the last month or two of road deaths.

This is the kind of exception which proves the rule, yes, our systems are failable, but some of our systems are actually working reasonably well, and improving, while others are a complete failure (although I won't argue that road safety isn't improving in *some* places).

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. The 737 MAX saga, which laid bare the regulatory capture of the FAA, somehow demonstrates that the system is working as intended and improving?

It seems to me that it clearly demonstrates that the system was not working as intended and it was only with immense public scrutiny and basically the entire world disregarding the FAA's leadership on the matter and taking steps to ground the 737MAX that the FAA finally took steps to correct the situation with the 737MAX. That's not how the system is supposed to work. Furthermore, it's not clear to me that the US government has actually corrected the core problems at the FAA that lead to this situation. It's not remarkable that a person or agency will act well when under public scrutiny, it's quite another thing for them to act well as a matter of course.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - bgb_ca - 12-12-2020

I just passed block line and they got a lot of heavy equipment out, including the mark IV or whatever that track tamper machine is.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - tomh009 - 12-12-2020

(12-12-2020, 11:28 AM)jamincan Wrote: I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. The 737 MAX saga, which laid bare the regulatory capture of the FAA, somehow demonstrates that the system is working as intended and improving?

It seems to me that it clearly demonstrates that the system was not working as intended and it was only with immense public scrutiny and basically the entire world disregarding the FAA's leadership on the matter and taking steps to ground the 737MAX that the FAA finally took steps to correct the situation with the 737MAX. That's not how the system is supposed to work. Furthermore, it's not clear to me that the US government has actually corrected the core problems at the FAA that lead to this situation. It's not remarkable that a person or agency will act well when under public scrutiny, it's quite another thing for them to act well as a matter of course.

Right. This was the point I was trying to make. Air travel regulations aren't perfect, either.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 12-12-2020

(12-12-2020, 03:24 PM)tomh009 Wrote:
(12-12-2020, 11:28 AM)jamincan Wrote: I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. The 737 MAX saga, which laid bare the regulatory capture of the FAA, somehow demonstrates that the system is working as intended and improving?

It seems to me that it clearly demonstrates that the system was not working as intended and it was only with immense public scrutiny and basically the entire world disregarding the FAA's leadership on the matter and taking steps to ground the 737MAX that the FAA finally took steps to correct the situation with the 737MAX. That's not how the system is supposed to work. Furthermore, it's not clear to me that the US government has actually corrected the core problems at the FAA that lead to this situation. It's not remarkable that a person or agency will act well when under public scrutiny, it's quite another thing for them to act well as a matter of course.

Right. This was the point I was trying to make. Air travel regulations aren't perfect, either.

Nobody is saying airline regulations are perfect.  But they are a million times more effective than road regulations, and yet get a million times the scrutiny.  

are you suggesting that because airline regulations aren’t perfect, that they can’t inform how to improve other regulations?

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jamincan - 12-12-2020

(12-12-2020, 04:27 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(12-12-2020, 03:24 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Right. This was the point I was trying to make. Air travel regulations aren't perfect, either.

Nobody is saying airline regulations are perfect.  But they are a million times more effective than road regulations, and yet get a million times the scrutiny.  

are you suggesting that because airline regulations aren’t perfect, that they can’t inform how to improve other regulations?
I'm saying that the 737Max is not the exception that proves the rule. The 737Max demonstrates a systemic failure of the FAA's regulatory function and to say that it is merely an exception in an otherwise functional system is extremely naïve.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - tomh009 - 12-12-2020

And it's not really comparable. The number of aircraft in use is far lower, the pilots are highly trained and certified, flying time per day is limited, and traffic is directed by highly professional air traffic control, all things that would not be feasible for private vehicles.

Fatalities per million passenger-miles are about 10x for road traffic as compared to air traffic. So, even by that metric, and ignoring the fundamental differences (as above), it's nowhere near "a million times".

And I never said that we couldn't improve. I'm not sure that air traffic regulation is the absolute best place to learn, though.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 12-12-2020

(12-12-2020, 07:32 PM)jamincan Wrote:
(12-12-2020, 04:27 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Nobody is saying airline regulations are perfect.  But they are a million times more effective than road regulations, and yet get a million times the scrutiny.  

are you suggesting that because airline regulations aren’t perfect, that they can’t inform how to improve other regulations?
I'm saying that the 737Max is not the exception that proves the rule. The 737Max demonstrates a systemic failure of the FAA's regulatory function and to say that it is merely an exception in an otherwise functional system is extremely naïve.

Certainly the 737Max is not the first aircraft to have an airworthyness directive issued, but I think it's absurd to argue that the FAA's regulatory funciton is a failure, systemic or otherwise.

Why is it naive to look at crash statistics and understand that a) commercial aviation is, by every measure, the safest way to travel, and b) been growing more and more safe ever year as a result of standards and regulations introduced by the FAA.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 12-12-2020

(12-12-2020, 08:50 PM)tomh009 Wrote: And it's not really comparable. The number of aircraft in use is far lower, the pilots are highly trained and certified, flying time per day is limited, and traffic is directed by highly professional air traffic control, all things that would not be feasible for private vehicles.

Fatalities per million passenger-miles are about 10x for road traffic as compared to air traffic. So, even by that metric, and ignoring the fundamental differences (as above), it's nowhere near "a million times".

And I never said that we couldn't improve. I'm not sure that air traffic regulation is the absolute best place to learn, though.

These are literally all FAA regulations, if our road safety regulations required highly trained operators and certified drivers on each vehicle, controlled by traffic control, we'd see far safer roads.

And before those things were in force for flying, I imagine someone would have said "that's infeasible".

As for statistics, maybe you're right, but I'd love to see a source. But still, a 10x safety improvement isn't anything to scoff at...you'd be talking about thousands of lives in Canada, and millions worldwide.

I'm really surprised to see poeple arguing that the FAA (and other regulatory bodies) haven't been effective in making air travel safe.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - tomh009 - 12-12-2020

(12-12-2020, 09:13 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(12-12-2020, 07:32 PM)jamincan Wrote: I'm saying that the 737Max is not the exception that proves the rule. The 737Max demonstrates a systemic failure of the FAA's regulatory function and to say that it is merely an exception in an otherwise functional system is extremely naïve.

Certainly the 737Max is not the first aircraft to have an airworthyness directive issued, but I think it's absurd to argue that the FAA's regulatory funciton is a failure, systemic or otherwise.

The 737 MAX certification indeed suffered from a systemic failure, unlike earlier aircraft. There is a tone of reading available for this. You can start with the Wikipedia page here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX_certification

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bob_McBob - 12-12-2020

A couple more from the region's finest political cartoonist at the Woolwich Observer...

"Other priorities mean the region has pushed off talk of an Elmira bypass route for at least a couple of decades."

[Image: DkaXNTg.jpg]

[No caption]

[Image: b4P2EDE.jpg]

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - westwardloo - 12-13-2020

As much as I hate the observers anti LRT cartoons. I grew up in Elmira, and I understand their point. I do think that a by-pass is needed. Downtown Elmira hasn't been a good destination for shopping in my lifetime, but it is made even worse by the constant tractor trailer traffic zooming through it. Obviously this would divert some traffic from Arthur Street that might stop and shop, but I would hazard a guess most people shopping in downtown Elmira are from Elmira or the surrounding farms.