Waterloo Region Connected
ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Printable Version

+- Waterloo Region Connected (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com)
+-- Forum: Waterloo Region Works (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=14)
+--- Forum: Transportation and Infrastructure (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25)
+--- Thread: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit (/showthread.php?tid=14)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 918 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 951 952 953 954 955 956 957 958 959 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 968 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 979 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 1041 1042 1043 1044 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 1050 1051 1052 1053 1054 1055 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 1109 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 1117 1118 1119 1120 1121 1122 1123 1124 1125 1126 1127 1128 1129 1130 1131 1132 1133 1134 1135 1136 1137 1138 1139 1140 1141 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 1149 1150 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - drum118 - 01-05-2020

5 minute service sound great, but it comes at a cost and inconvenience.

First of all, you need cars and spares to meet that 5 minute schedule and that is both an operation cost as well capital cost. Need at least 15% spare ratio plus the X cars on line. It cost money to put drivers in the seat of those cars as well to maintain them on a daily base. Cost of power to run the cars and etc.

If you have 5 minute service, then each crossing will see a train about every 2.5 minutes that will interfere the the flow of traffic and pedestrians. Who do you think will bitch the loudest and have a better say against the 5 minute service?

The lowest I have seen with 2/3 car trains (200-300') has been 10 minutes both in NA and Europe when crossing intersections other than Toronto that use single cars.

Most places in the US would love to see 7 minute service when they mostly see 15-20 minute service today for 66' cars, let alone 100'

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 01-05-2020

(01-05-2020, 08:18 PM)drum118 Wrote: 5 minute service sound great, but it comes at a cost and inconvenience.

First of all, you need cars and spares to meet that 5 minute schedule and that is both an operation cost as well capital cost. Need at least 15% spare ratio plus the X cars on line. It cost money to put drivers in the seat of those cars as well to maintain them on a daily base. Cost of power to run the cars and etc.

If you have 5 minute service, then each crossing will see a train about every 2.5 minutes that will interfere the the flow of traffic and pedestrians. Who do you think will bitch the loudest and have a better say against the 5 minute service?

The lowest I have seen with 2/3 car trains (200-300') has been 10 minutes both in NA and Europe when crossing intersections other than Toronto that use single cars.

Most places in the US would love to see 7 minute service when they mostly see 15-20 minute service today for 66' cars, let alone 100'

The discussion was in the context of rising ridership, justifying more vehicles. So the question is whether to run 2-car consists every 10 minutes or single cars every 5; and the only significant difference in system operating cost there is in the drivers; there is no capital cost difference.

Given the number of people that would be carried by such a service, I think one brief interruption every 2.5 minutes on average is easily justifiable. Remember, it’s perfectly routine for a typical major road to have its traffic flow interrupted every couple of minutes: it’s called a traffic light. A certain amount of fine-tuning of crossings would be needed to minimize the time during which road traffic would need to stop but ultimately it wouldn’t really be that different from having a cross street with a traffic light at the location of the crossing.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - MidTowner - 01-05-2020

(01-05-2020, 08:49 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: The discussion was in the context of rising ridership, justifying more vehicles. So the question is whether to run 2-car consists every 10 minutes or single cars every 5; and the only significant difference in system operating cost there is in the drivers; there is no capital cost difference.

Given the number of people that would be carried by such a service, I think one brief interruption every 2.5 minutes on average is easily justifiable. Remember, it’s perfectly routine for a typical major road to have its traffic flow interrupted every couple of minutes: it’s called a traffic light. A certain amount of fine-tuning of crossings would be needed to minimize the time during which road traffic would need to stop but ultimately it wouldn’t really be that different from having a cross street with a traffic light at the location of the crossing.

You're absolutely right about the motor traffic delays- they would be trivial in the face of the kind of ridership that would prompt a conversation about five-minute frequency. But I don't really see the need for five minutes- if the question is between ten minute and five minute frequency, yes, that's significant. But we should be at eight-minute headways now, and I can't really see the benefit of moving from seven or eight minutes to five, presuming zero capacity issues with the multiple car trains.

At seven minutes, a rider doesn't really have to check a schedule. Most of the benefits of increased frequency have been realized by that point.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - taylortbb - 01-05-2020

(01-05-2020, 09:15 PM)MidTowner Wrote: But I don't really see the need for five minutes- if the question is between ten minute and five minute frequency, yes, that's significant. But we should be at eight-minute headways now, and I can't really see the benefit of moving from seven or eight minutes to five, presuming zero capacity issues with the multiple car trains.

At seven minutes, a rider doesn't really have to check a schedule. Most of the benefits of increased frequency have been realized by that point.

Anything less than 5 mins I'm probably going to check a schedule, especially when I've got to wait outdoors and it's cold.

That said, right now I'd rather have increased off-peak service than 5 min peak service. If we could get to every 10 mins or better until 10pm Monday to Saturday I think that would be a huge improvement. Right now I often walk home and get my car if I'm going somewhere after work and will be out past the end of 10 minute service.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Spokes - 01-06-2020

(01-05-2020, 08:18 PM)drum118 Wrote: 5 minute service sound great, but it comes at a cost and inconvenience.

First of all, you need cars and spares to meet that 5 minute schedule and that is both an operation cost as well capital cost. Need at least 15% spare ratio plus the X cars on line. It cost money to put drivers in the seat of those cars as well to maintain them on a daily base. Cost of power to run the cars and etc.

If you have 5 minute service, then each crossing will see a train about every 2.5 minutes that will interfere the the flow of traffic and pedestrians. Who do you think will bitch the loudest and have a better say against the 5 minute service?

The lowest I have seen with 2/3 car trains (200-300') has been 10 minutes both in NA and Europe when crossing intersections other than Toronto that use single cars.

Most places in the US would love to see 7 minute service when they mostly see 15-20 minute service today for 66' cars, let alone 100'

How many spares are needed?  And do we have now?

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 10:13 AM)Spokes Wrote:
(01-05-2020, 08:18 PM)drum118 Wrote: 5 minute service sound great, but it comes at a cost and inconvenience.

First of all, you need cars and spares to meet that 5 minute schedule and that is both an operation cost as well capital cost. Need at least 15% spare ratio plus the X cars on line. It cost money to put drivers in the seat of those cars as well to maintain them on a daily base. Cost of power to run the cars and etc.

If you have 5 minute service, then each crossing will see a train about every 2.5 minutes that will interfere the the flow of traffic and pedestrians. Who do you think will bitch the loudest and have a better say against the 5 minute service?

The lowest I have seen with 2/3 car trains (200-300') has been 10 minutes both in NA and Europe when crossing intersections other than Toronto that use single cars.

Most places in the US would love to see 7 minute service when they mostly see 15-20 minute service today for 66' cars, let alone 100'

How many spares are needed?  And do we have now?

We have 14 vehicles, and I believe the plan was to have as many as 12 of them in service at one time, with 2 spares.

If the route is a 90 minute round trip (time from one departure from a station to the next departure of the same vehicle from the same station in the same direction), then this would allow 7.5 minute headways: 12 vehicles * 7.5 minutes/vehicle = 90 minutes.

Since the route is several minutes over 90 minutes right now, 12 vehicles are not enough to provide 7.5 minute headways. However, if we go to 8 minute headways then you get 12 * 8 = 96, which I think would work with current operating practices.

Based on observations from riding, I think it should be possible to get the round trip time down to 90 minutes. I’m pretty sure there is enough time wasted waiting for signals with insufficient priority or which expire too quickly, going excessively slowly in certain areas, and not achieving top speeds in other areas, that it should be possible to shave off those few extra minutes.

5 minute headways would require 18 vehicles in service assuming we can get the 90 minute roundtrip; at this point there should be 3 spares to maintain the same ratio for a total of 21 or 7 more than we currently have.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - MidTowner - 01-06-2020

(01-05-2020, 09:39 PM)taylortbb Wrote:
(01-05-2020, 09:15 PM)MidTowner Wrote: But I don't really see the need for five minutes- if the question is between ten minute and five minute frequency, yes, that's significant. But we should be at eight-minute headways now, and I can't really see the benefit of moving from seven or eight minutes to five, presuming zero capacity issues with the multiple car trains.

At seven minutes, a rider doesn't really have to check a schedule. Most of the benefits of increased frequency have been realized by that point.

Anything less than 5 mins I'm probably going to check a schedule, especially when I've got to wait outdoors and it's cold.

That said, right now I'd rather have increased off-peak service than 5 min peak service. If we could get to every 10 mins or better until 10pm Monday to Saturday I think that would be a huge improvement. Right now I often walk home and get my car if I'm going somewhere after work and will be out past the end of 10 minute service.

Everyone will have their own threshold for this, and maybe for Ion it's relatively low since (I imagine) many trips are very short in duration. I'll probably stop consulting the schedule at all once the frequency is increased, as promised, but I admit I may be an outlier. Maybe it really is five minutes, though I think it's probably somewhat higher for most people. You're right that the comfort of the wait makes a big difference.

I'm with you 100% on extending the 10-minute frequency until later. I would say earlier, too- waiting until 7:00am seems too late to me.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - eh-cun71 - 01-07-2020

Still no progress on the UW station bus terminal but there were surveyors on the construction site yesterday.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - KevinL - 01-07-2020

I've heard there is a buried fiber optic cable that wasn't in the location they'd expected, which has managed to stop basically all work until they can redesign around it (as relocating it is too expensive?).

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bob_McBob - 01-07-2020

The construction delays for the UW bus terminal are incredible even by the region's usual low standards. It was supposed to be ready in fall 2017 in time for ION service to start in early 2018. They finally broke ground on July 2, 2019, and six months later there is barely anything to show for it.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 01-07-2020

(01-07-2020, 02:03 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: The construction delays for the UW bus terminal are incredible even by the region's usual low standards. It was supposed to be ready in fall 2017 in time for ION service to start in early 2018. They finally broke ground on July 2, 2019, and six months later there is barely anything to show for it.

They’re giving Bombardier a run for their money!

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ac3r - 01-10-2020

Not sure if this has been posted before, but here's a peek at two LRVs running together, which they'll introduce in about 3-4 years. Not the best angle, unfortunately.

[Image: s43SWaD.jpg]


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - taylortbb - 01-10-2020

(01-10-2020, 12:47 AM)ac3r Wrote: Not sure if this has been posted before, but here's a peek at two LRVs running together, which they'll introduce in about 3-4 years. Not the best angle, unfortunately.

The draft service plans from the project agreement had that timetable, but those are ancient and pretty irrelevant at this point. The region would have to be ordering vehicles now for that timetable to be realistic, and that's not something they've done. Actual changes will be based on ridership.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - panamaniac - 01-10-2020

(01-10-2020, 01:55 AM)taylortbb Wrote:
(01-10-2020, 12:47 AM)ac3r Wrote: Not sure if this has been posted before, but here's a peek at two LRVs running together, which they'll introduce in about 3-4 years. Not the best angle, unfortunately.

The draft service plans from the project agreement had that timetable, but those are ancient and pretty irrelevant at this point. The region would have to be ordering vehicles now for that timetable to be realistic, and that's not something they've done. Actual changes will be based on ridership.
Speaking of which, are we likely to see much wrt ridership numbers prior to the first full year of operation?

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bytor - 01-10-2020

(01-10-2020, 10:06 AM)panamaniac Wrote:
(01-10-2020, 01:55 AM)taylortbb Wrote: The draft service plans from the project agreement had that timetable, but those are ancient and pretty irrelevant at this point. The region would have to be ordering vehicles now for that timetable to be realistic, and that's not something they've done. Actual changes will be based on ridership.
Speaking of which, are we likely to see much wrt ridership numbers prior to the first full year of operation?

I have been bugging them about that since March 2019. Here is my latest tweet:

https://twitter.com/Bytor/status/1215721201735274496

Perhaps others could retweet and amplify?

I was using the numbers for this project: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uiRgK-7HHQU7R_A_I6EWdQs_MK1qyvUe3sjEnTmPhGY/edit#gid=0