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ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Printable Version

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RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 09-02-2019

(09-02-2019, 11:25 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: "It's my own fault"...people think this, it is rarely true.

I’ve actually noticed this from the other side. At UW I created and maintain a system whose user base has gradually grown. While some parts of it are pretty slick, there are many other aspects of it which are excessively confusing, which I know about. I’ve had people write emails pretty much saying, “I must just be really dumb, so I hope you’ll forgive this question, …”. And these are the parts of the system that I already know are problematic! I just had to implement something quickly, so I did, and in many cases I know that I’m going to have to come back and figure out how to make it easier to use later.

There are other areas where I’ve been surprised by what is and is not confusing for people. Sometimes if I haven’t been able to eliminate the confusion I’ve at least implemented an interlock so that confusion will lead to an error message or inability to complete the task, rather than to the wrong option being chosen silently. I’d rather get a question about an error message than for the person to wonder what happened to the request they thought they had made through the system.

Anyway, if a request indicating confusion comes in, my first approach is to treat it as an example of my system imposing itself on somebody whose actual job is teaching and research, not figuring out my system. Sometimes I conclude that a low volume of confusion should be handled by just answering the questions when they come in, but in general I don’t even speculate on the abilities of the client, never mind judging their request on that basis. The goal is for the system to fade into the background. I’ve been fortunate enough to have use of the system be optional for most of its users most of the time. As a result, I really don’t have the option of ignoring feedback.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jeffster - 09-02-2019

(09-02-2019, 11:15 AM)ac3r Wrote: Am I in the minority in thinking this is not that hard to use? The payment systems might take a few minutes the first time, but it's not much harder than an ATM. And to pay your fare, you tap the card and ideally wait to check the screen to see what it says, just like an Interac machine. Just about every person in the country knows how those work.

The only thing that has ever caught me off guard was while adding funds at the machine. It is most likely my own fault for not clearly reading the message that tells you once you've paid you need to tap your card again to complete the transaction and add the funds. I forgot to do this and of course my funds weren't added, until I went down to the new customer service centre to get it fixed up. So in this case, the card holders show their usefulness.

But everything else? It just takes pushing some buttons and reading what is on the screen. If opening the doors of the train is even confusing to people (I don't know why, because to exit the bus you interact with the door), I blame the user for not having common sense, not the design. And so I can only blame the user for not having patience to read the screens when paying for products or paying a fare.

Bolded for emphasis. Something simple shouldn't be complicated at all. And from what I hear, even if you're doing everything right, you need to have 3 hands (one to hold your debit/credit card, one to hold your fare card, and one to hold onto your possessions), which is very poor design, and pity the person with any sort of disability with an arm (and I have worked with such) which makes the process impossible.

As for the train and the buttons to open the doors, I think most people are used to having train doors, or indeed any sliding door, open automatically, not manually. And it's not something people are used to, as they're not looking for signage nor buttons when then come up to a sliding door. I went to the CNE this year, and here I was teaching people how to get onto the TTC's LRT, as no one knew, and they have had their trains for a while. 100% of the sliding doors I've encountered have been automatic except these LRT's.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - MidTowner - 09-03-2019

From my observations waiting on the platform, I think plenty of riders have discovered the workaround of simply not bothering to try to tap their cards any more. Problem solved!

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - MidTowner - 09-03-2019

Hey, GRT listened and put the full Ion timetable back up on their web site, alongside the condensed timetable. Best of both worlds.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ac3r - 09-03-2019

(09-02-2019, 11:40 PM)jeffster Wrote:
(09-02-2019, 11:15 AM)ac3r Wrote: Am I in the minority in thinking this is not that hard to use? The payment systems might take a few minutes the first time, but it's not much harder than an ATM. And to pay your fare, you tap the card and ideally wait to check the screen to see what it says, just like an Interac machine. Just about every person in the country knows how those work.

The only thing that has ever caught me off guard was while adding funds at the machine. It is most likely my own fault for not clearly reading the message that tells you once you've paid you need to tap your card again to complete the transaction and add the funds. I forgot to do this and of course my funds weren't added, until I went down to the new customer service centre to get it fixed up. So in this case, the card holders show their usefulness.

But everything else? It just takes pushing some buttons and reading what is on the screen. If opening the doors of the train is even confusing to people (I don't know why, because to exit the bus you interact with the door), I blame the user for not having common sense, not the design. And so I can only blame the user for not having patience to read the screens when paying for products or paying a fare.

Bolded for emphasis. Something simple shouldn't be complicated at all. And from what I hear, even if you're doing everything right, you need to have 3 hands (one to hold your debit/credit card, one to hold your fare card, and one to hold onto your possessions), which is very poor design, and pity the person with any sort of disability with an arm (and I have worked with such) which makes the process impossible.

As for the train and the buttons to open the doors, I think most people are used to having train doors, or indeed any sliding door, open automatically, not manually. And it's not something people are used to, as they're not looking for signage nor buttons when then come up to a sliding door. I went to the CNE this year, and here I was teaching people how to get onto the TTC's LRT, as no one knew, and they have had their trains for a while. 100% of the sliding doors I've encountered have been automatic except these LRT's.

Yeah some places have them, particularly in North America. In Europe, a lot of countries have them operate manually and it isn't a big issue. Of course, this is new to residents here so it's taking some learning, but eventually everyone is going to know except people visiting or who rarely use transit. I suspect the reason we went with manual operation is that with automatic doors, you are losing a lot of the climate control each time they're open. If 4 doors are opening at each stop (or more, when we start running the trains in pairs) then you are letting out a lot of climate controlled air and letting in a lot of humid summer air or frigid winter air. Same with rain, blowing snow or heavy wind. It's something most people want to avoid on their commute to work. By having only the doors people want to open open, the train stays more comfortable and uses less energy.

As for needing three hands, that is true and I remember a discussion earlier in the thread about the machines lacking a card holder. It does put people at a disadvantage. Hopefully they can fix that up on all the payment machines, the same way Presto ones are.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - avernar - 09-03-2019

(08-30-2019, 10:22 AM)Bytor Wrote: I disagree. If you need to lay the card on the sensor because it has to be close enough to read the NFC's weak signal, and the user holds it up too far away, that's not faulty implementation, it's the user not following instructions. Sometimes the user is just doing things wrong.
Near Field Communication.  Near, not touching.  If you have to get closer than 4cm the power on reader is set too low.

User interfaces are like jokes.  If you have to explain it, it's not a good one.

So our two options are:

1) Get every single person who lives or visits here to mush their card against the reader.
2) Increase the power of the reader excitation coil.

Hmmmm.  Let's pick the easy one and do option 2.  Did that at a parking garage entrance once.  It would read the card 3-4 feet away.  You didn't even have to roll down your window.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 09-03-2019

(09-03-2019, 02:31 PM)avernar Wrote: User interfaces are like jokes.  If you have to explain it, it's not a good one.

Tongue  Tongue  Tongue

Although still only true in interfaces that work best if they are super simple. In many cases, experts can be more productive if they take time to learn an interface that is designed for experts. But I do accept that this discussion is about tap-to-pay machines, so it needs to be obvious to the general public.

Edit: unfortunately too many interfaces are jokes.

(09-03-2019, 02:31 PM)avernar Wrote: Hmmmm.  Let's pick the easy one and do option 2.  Did that at a parking garage entrance once.  It would read the card 3-4 feet away.  You didn't even have to roll down your window.

At some point, it becomes excessive, and is its own, worse, UI problem. I’d rather “sometimes I’m confused as to whether my card has been read” than “sometimes I’m confused why I’ve paid for the fares of half the passengers in the station”. For a parking garage entrance it might be OK, since all it’s doing is opening the door (I assume). For anything that is even remotely ATM like, in that it can cost the card’s owner money, it’s not OK. But if it’s the difference between “card pretty much needs to touch terminal” and “card just needs to be within 10cm of terminal”, your Option 2 is probably best.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bytor - 09-03-2019

(09-02-2019, 11:40 PM)jeffster Wrote: As for the train and the buttons to open the doors, I think most people are used to having train doors, or indeed any sliding door, open automatically, not manually. And it's not something people are used to, as they're not looking for signage nor buttons when then come up to a sliding door. I went to the CNE this year, and here I was teaching people how to get onto the TTC's LRT, as no one knew, and they have had their trains for a while. 100% of the sliding doors I've encountered have been automatic except these LRT's.

Friends who live in or have been to Europe tell me the many trams, especially newer ones, do not have automatic doors and you need to press a button to open them. That wa smy experience as well in Dublin a few weeks ago on their Luas.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bytor - 09-03-2019

(09-03-2019, 02:31 PM)avernar Wrote:
(08-30-2019, 10:22 AM)Bytor Wrote: I disagree. If you need to lay the card on the sensor because it has to be close enough to read the NFC's weak signal, and the user holds it up too far away, that's not faulty implementation, it's the user not following instructions. Sometimes the user is just doing things wrong.
Near Field Communication.  Near, not touching.  If you have to get closer than 4cm the power on reader is set too low.

User interfaces are like jokes.  If you have to explain it, it's not a good one.

So our two options are:

1) Get every single person who lives or visits here to mush their card against the reader.
2) Increase the power of the reader excitation coil.

Hmmmm.  Let's pick the easy one and do option 2.  Did that at a parking garage entrance once.  It would read the card 3-4 feet away.  You didn't even have to roll down your window.


Security implications, yikes! That 1-1.5m read you describe boosts the interception distance up to, what 10m instead of the 1m for a typical tap like for a card terminal in a store?

I'd pick the secure option of having users lay their fare card on the sensor, just like how 99% of people lay their car on the screen of a card terminal in a store.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - trainspotter139 - 09-03-2019

(09-03-2019, 02:31 PM)avernar Wrote:
(08-30-2019, 10:22 AM)Bytor Wrote: I disagree. If you need to lay the card on the sensor because it has to be close enough to read the NFC's weak signal, and the user holds it up too far away, that's not faulty implementation, it's the user not following instructions. Sometimes the user is just doing things wrong.
Near Field Communication.  Near, not touching.  If you have to get closer than 4cm the power on reader is set too low.

User interfaces are like jokes.  If you have to explain it, it's not a good one.

So our two options are:

1) Get every single person who lives or visits here to mush their card against the reader.
2) Increase the power of the reader excitation coil.

Hmmmm.  Let's pick the easy one and do option 2.  Did that at a parking garage entrance once.  It would read the card 3-4 feet away.  You didn't even have to roll down your window.

Increasing the power to that level would require a license to operate each device from Industry Canada as it would exceed the allowable power without an operating license.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - trainspotter139 - 09-03-2019

(09-03-2019, 04:38 PM)Bytor Wrote:
(09-03-2019, 02:31 PM)avernar Wrote: Near Field Communication.  Near, not touching.  If you have to get closer than 4cm the power on reader is set too low.

User interfaces are like jokes.  If you have to explain it, it's not a good one.

So our two options are:

1) Get every single person who lives or visits here to mush their card against the reader.
2) Increase the power of the reader excitation coil.

Hmmmm.  Let's pick the easy one and do option 2.  Did that at a parking garage entrance once.  It would read the card 3-4 feet away.  You didn't even have to roll down your window.


Security implications, yikes! That 1-1.5m read you describe boosts the interception distance up to, what 10m instead of the 1m for a typical tap like for a card terminal in a store?

I'd pick the secure option of having users lay their fare card on the sensor, just like how 99% of people lay their car on the screen of a card terminal in a store.

Not to mention it would power every RF chip card in one's wallet and make the problem worse.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jeffster - 09-03-2019

Another option for the card reader (for refilling it) could have been to have it inserted into the payment machine, followed by the credit card, then refilled, and have the machine spit out both cards once the transaction is complete. I'm pretty sure this is how some garages work (I'm thinking GRH). Probably too expensive to change this now though, unless the hardware is compatible and the software can be updated.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jeffster - 09-03-2019

(09-03-2019, 04:38 PM)Bytor Wrote:
(09-03-2019, 02:31 PM)avernar Wrote: Near Field Communication.  Near, not touching.  If you have to get closer than 4cm the power on reader is set too low.

User interfaces are like jokes.  If you have to explain it, it's not a good one.

So our two options are:

1) Get every single person who lives or visits here to mush their card against the reader.
2) Increase the power of the reader excitation coil.

Hmmmm.  Let's pick the easy one and do option 2.  Did that at a parking garage entrance once.  It would read the card 3-4 feet away.  You didn't even have to roll down your window.


Security implications, yikes! That 1-1.5m read you describe boosts the interception distance up to, what 10m instead of the 1m for a typical tap like for a card terminal in a store?

I'd pick the secure option of having users lay their fare card on the sensor, just like how 99% of people lay their car on the screen of a card terminal in a store.

The problem with this system is one simply can't lay their card flat on the NFC reader with one hand, while paying at the terminal with the other hand, while holding their goods with their third hand. Though you bring up a good idea, they could install a NFC above the debit/credit terminal to lay their card flat while purchasing funds.

I do worry that the current solution will just be vandalized. Guess we'll find out if it's a good solution or not soon enough.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 09-04-2019

(09-03-2019, 11:50 PM)jeffster Wrote: Another option for the card reader (for refilling it) could have been to have it inserted into the payment machine, followed by the credit card, then refilled, and have the machine spit out both cards once the transaction is complete.  I'm pretty sure this is how some garages work (I'm thinking GRH). Probably too expensive to change this now though, unless the hardware is compatible and the software can be updated.

I was thinking that a slot might be better for the vending machines. It’s weird and unfamiliar to have to present the card twice, whereas people are perfectly used to the idea of giving the machine their ATM card, then getting it back only when the machine decides it’s done with it. Even with RF reading, which doesn’t require a slot, it would guarantee proper placement of the card every time.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - MidTowner - 09-04-2019

Ion didn't seem too busy yesterday at UW (I happened to pass through both at noon hour and later in the day), thankfully. I heard complaints from someone I know at KCI that several trains leaving Grand River Hospital were crush loaded. When I got off at GRH, there were a number of students waiting to get on, and that was well past 3:00 (KCI classes end at 2:30).

We really could use that little bit of extra frequency.