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RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - danbrotherston - 04-04-2021
(04-04-2021, 07:20 PM)Bjays93 Wrote:(04-04-2021, 07:12 PM)jwilliamson Wrote: Let's say any rolling stock can run at 160 km/h the whole way if there are no stops. That gives us 38 minutes from Kitchener to Union Station. If it takes 45 seconds to decelerate and then accelerate back to speed and a 1 minute dwell at each station, we could keep every existing station and make the run in 56 minutes.But it will never take a mere 45 seconds to decelerate and accelerate, nor will it only ever stop for a single minute. Also it cannot feasibly run at top speed through the whole track anyway, even if stops were optimized, significant upgrades would be needed for the train to go at its top speed the whole way. I'd love to see the province invest in those upgrades but they aren't.
Theres a reason it takes ~2 hours to get there right now, its not simply fixable by running the trains faster or that would be done
Indeed, acceleration and deacceleration alone physically cannot be done in 45 seconds, a train is not like a car, or even a bus.
And many sections of track are in poor condition or are close to houses.
But I have never understood why we have such a low limit at level crossings. We should have improved level crossings, but whether a train is going 100km/h, or 120km/h, or 140km/h won't make a huge difference if you choose to break the crossing anyway. Is there a clear justification for the limit through level crossings?
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - jwilliamson - 04-04-2021
(04-04-2021, 07:20 PM)Bjays93 Wrote:(04-04-2021, 07:12 PM)jwilliamson Wrote: Let's say any rolling stock can run at 160 km/h the whole way if there are no stops. That gives us 38 minutes from Kitchener to Union Station. If it takes 45 seconds to decelerate and then accelerate back to speed and a 1 minute dwell at each station, we could keep every existing station and make the run in 56 minutes.But it will never take a mere 45 seconds to decelerate and accelerate, nor will it only ever stop for a single minute. Also it cannot feasibly run at top speed through the whole track anyway, even if stops were optimized, significant upgrades would be needed for the train to go at its top speed the whole way. I'd love to see the province invest in those upgrades but they aren't.
Theres a reason it takes ~2 hours to get there right now, its not simply fixable by running the trains faster or that would be done
The Starter FLIRT can decelerate from 160 to 0 in 22 seconds and accelerate in 24 seconds. 40 seconds is enough time for 20 passengers to disembark from each door and another 20 to embark, and you could add another 10 to open the doors and 10 to close the doors.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - Bjays93 - 04-04-2021
(04-04-2021, 08:57 PM)jwilliamson Wrote:I must ask have you ever actually taken the train?(04-04-2021, 07:20 PM)Bjays93 Wrote: But it will never take a mere 45 seconds to decelerate and accelerate, nor will it only ever stop for a single minute. Also it cannot feasibly run at top speed through the whole track anyway, even if stops were optimized, significant upgrades would be needed for the train to go at its top speed the whole way. I'd love to see the province invest in those upgrades but they aren't.
Theres a reason it takes ~2 hours to get there right now, its not simply fixable by running the trains faster or that would be done
The Starter FLIRT can decelerate from 160 to 0 in 22 seconds and accelerate in 24 seconds. 40 seconds is enough time for 20 passengers to disembark from each door and another 20 to embark, and you could add another 10 to open the doors and 10 to close the doors.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - jwilliamson - 04-04-2021
(04-04-2021, 09:00 PM)Bjays93 Wrote:(04-04-2021, 08:57 PM)jwilliamson Wrote:I must ask have you ever actually taken the train?
The Starter FLIRT can decelerate from 160 to 0 in 22 seconds and accelerate in 24 seconds. 40 seconds is enough time for 20 passengers to disembark from each door and another 20 to embark, and you could add another 10 to open the doors and 10 to close the doors.
Many times. I was not claiming that our existing trains have that sort of performance, but that once we have electrified the route that is what is feasible.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - tomh009 - 04-04-2021
(04-04-2021, 08:57 PM)jwilliamson Wrote:(04-04-2021, 07:20 PM)Bjays93 Wrote: But it will never take a mere 45 seconds to decelerate and accelerate, nor will it only ever stop for a single minute. Also it cannot feasibly run at top speed through the whole track anyway, even if stops were optimized, significant upgrades would be needed for the train to go at its top speed the whole way. I'd love to see the province invest in those upgrades but they aren't.
Theres a reason it takes ~2 hours to get there right now, its not simply fixable by running the trains faster or that would be done
The Starter FLIRT can decelerate from 160 to 0 in 22 seconds and accelerate in 24 seconds. 40 seconds is enough time for 20 passengers to disembark from each door and another 20 to embark, and you could add another 10 to open the doors and 10 to close the doors.
But that's forty-SIX seconds to decelerate and accelerate!
More seriously, what's the acceleration/deceleration time for the current GO rolling stock? How much time would we save with all new rolling stock?
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - jwilliamson - 04-04-2021
(04-04-2021, 09:22 PM)tomh009 Wrote:(04-04-2021, 08:57 PM)jwilliamson Wrote:
The Starter FLIRT can decelerate from 160 to 0 in 22 seconds and accelerate in 24 seconds. 40 seconds is enough time for 20 passengers to disembark from each door and another 20 to embark, and you could add another 10 to open the doors and 10 to close the doors.
But that's forty-SIX seconds to decelerate and accelerate!
More seriously, what's the acceleration/deceleration time for the current GO rolling stock? How much time would we save with all new rolling stock?
I ran some number with our existing rolling stock (50 tonne bi-level coaches and a 130 tonne, 2700 kW locomotive). It looks like a 10 coach train should be able to accelerate to 160 km/h in about 100 seconds, and decelerate in 80. A 6 coach train only needs 70 seconds to accelerate and 60 to decelerate.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - tomh009 - 04-04-2021
(04-04-2021, 09:49 PM)jwilliamson Wrote:(04-04-2021, 09:22 PM)tomh009 Wrote: But that's forty-SIX seconds to decelerate and accelerate!
More seriously, what's the acceleration/deceleration time for the current GO rolling stock? How much time would we save with all new rolling stock?
I ran some number with our existing rolling stock (50 tonne bi-level coaches and a 130 tonne, 2700 kW locomotive). It looks like a 10 coach train should be able to accelerate to 160 km/h in about 100 seconds, and decelerate in 80. A 6 coach train only needs 70 seconds to accelerate and 60 to decelerate.
So, that's about two minutes extra per station, for a 10-car train. (Are the FLIRT numbers for a similar 10x 50t cars?) About 18 minutes for the current set of stations, on top of a super express service with no stops. 1h15 from Kitchener to Union Station -- I would personally be quite happy with that.
If the Stadler FLIRT specs are for the electrified version, the upgrade price tag would be substantial.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - jwilliamson - 04-04-2021
(04-04-2021, 10:04 PM)tomh009 Wrote:(04-04-2021, 09:49 PM)jwilliamson Wrote: I ran some number with our existing rolling stock (50 tonne bi-level coaches and a 130 tonne, 2700 kW locomotive). It looks like a 10 coach train should be able to accelerate to 160 km/h in about 100 seconds, and decelerate in 80. A 6 coach train only needs 70 seconds to accelerate and 60 to decelerate.
So, that's about two minutes extra per station, for a 10-car train. (Are the FLIRT numbers for a similar 10x 50t cars?) About 18 minutes for the current set of stations, on top of a super express service with no stops. 1h15 from Kitchener to Union Station -- I would personally be quite happy with that.
If the Stadler FLIRT specs are for the electrified version, the upgrade price tag would be substantial.
The FLIRT is a EMU (each car has its own onboard motor), so the number in a train has a very marginal impact on performance. There's a decrease in wind resistance per unit power, but the main component of acceleration time is tonnes per kilowatt.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - nms - 04-05-2021
There are two separate transportation challenges presented here:
1. Movement within the City/Region
2. Movement between Cities/Regions
To get back to the original challenge of planning a trip from Sweetbriar/Ruskview in Kitchener to Morrison Crescent in Grimsby, the answer is fairly simple, but will take a little more planning:
1. Convince GO Transit to run a bus route from Kitchener, to Cambridge and straight down Highway 8 to Hamilton, Grimsby, St Catharines and terminating at Niagara Falls
2. Convince GO Transit to upgrade the bus route a higher order of transit using smaller trains than a 12-car train.
There was briefly a CPR train (largely a self-driving electric or diesel-electric unit) that ran from Cambridge (Galt) to Hamilton via the CPR connection that runs between the Guelph Junctions (just west of Cambellville) and Waterdown. Alas, it only lasted a couple of years in the mid-1920s.
It wouldn't be politically feasible, but it's nice to dream about what might happen if there were a moratorium on highway widening while all capacity-increasing funding were directed to other transportation improvements (be it passenger or freight upgrades). Canada is somewhat stuck unlike other countries around the world where the rail network is largely public property. This makes it easier to make upgrades as necessary without needing to haggle with a private company that owns the track and station areas at the centre of the cities.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - tomh009 - 04-05-2021
(04-04-2021, 10:26 PM)jwilliamson Wrote:(04-04-2021, 10:04 PM)tomh009 Wrote: If the Stadler FLIRT specs are for the electrified version, the upgrade price tag would be substantial.
The FLIRT is a EMU (each car has its own onboard motor), so the number in a train has a very marginal impact on performance. There's a decrease in wind resistance per unit power, but the main component of acceleration time is tonnes per kilowatt.
Looking at the Stadler site now, the FLIRT maxes out at eight single-decker cars, so I don't expect that GO would accept that. The KISS is a double-decker (again max eight cars) that might work. But it won't come cheap ...
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - Bytor - 04-05-2021
(04-04-2021, 02:25 PM)Bjays93 Wrote: The problem now for example, is that the only efficient way of commuting to toronto is via the 401. Increasing the speed of GO trains dosen't solve this problem.
Yes, just speed would make a big difference. Currently the Kitchener Line is limited by a combination of having to for freight traffic That limit to an effective track class of 2 and roughly 50km/h.
If the tracks were recoditioned to class 4—roughly 129km/h, not high speed—and contention with freight were removed, the all-stops trip with 5 minute dwell times from Kitchener to Union Station would be about 1h48m (with no blockages due to freight trains). That's competitive with a car on good days. However, given that there's a lot of bad days with 401 congestion and 2+ hour commutes between Kitchener and Toronto are not uncommon and train times are much less variable from day to day, that makes the train the more reliable, very "feasible" choice even with all those stops.
(04-04-2021, 02:25 PM)Bjays93 Wrote: We need fast transit with limited stops connecting our major cities. There are obviously intercity options with more stops, but there should be a train, HSR or not, that runs stops kitchener, guelph, Pearson, and union station. That's a feasible train to take.
Reconditioning the tracks to better than class 4 doesn't do more than that for an all-stops run, because some of the inter-station distances are simply too short to make it up to speed. You only shave off 2 or 3 minutes with each class increase.
But it does make things better for an express run that doesn't to be just the very limited run you suggest.
Kitchener→Guelph→Acton→Georgetown→Mount Pleasant→Union Station, the proposed Kitchener Line express trip for #2WADGO, would take about 43 minutes if it could be run at class 5 speeds of ~153km/h. Or 39 minutes at class 6 speeds of 177km/h. Common European train speeds not considered to be "high speed".
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - Bytor - 04-05-2021
(04-04-2021, 09:49 PM)jwilliamson Wrote:(04-04-2021, 09:22 PM)tomh009 Wrote: But that's forty-SIX seconds to decelerate and accelerate!
More seriously, what's the acceleration/deceleration time for the current GO rolling stock? How much time would we save with all new rolling stock?
I ran some number with our existing rolling stock (50 tonne bi-level coaches and a 130 tonne, 2700 kW locomotive). It looks like a 10 coach train should be able to accelerate to 160 km/h in about 100 seconds, and decelerate in 80. A 6 coach train only needs 70 seconds to accelerate and 60 to decelerate.
The usual range of average acceleration is 0.1m/2² 0.3m/s², with commuter trains tending towards the lower because of more people standing, and HSR trains at the higher end because most people are seated.
The accelerations you're describing here are significantly higher than you see on commuter or HSR trains, at 0.45m/s² .
In North America, Class 5 rail is ~153km/h and takes about ~425 seconds at an average of 0.1m/2², or ~140 seconds at 0,3m/s².
Class 6, ~177km/h would be 490-455 seconds, or 160-165 seconds.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - KevinT - 04-05-2021
(04-04-2021, 09:22 PM)tomh009 Wrote: More seriously, what's the acceleration/deceleration time for the current GO rolling stock? How much time would we save with all new rolling stock?
I can't give you the numbers, but I can explain why electrification is such a big deal:
A 12-car GO train with a single engine has 52 axles, only 4 of which (those in the engine) are powered. An electrified 12 car GO train has 48 powered axles, can brake by back-feeding power to the grid rather than burning up brake pads by scrubbing them against metal discs, and eliminates a heavy diesel engine, generator, and fuel tank. Yes, it probably could accelerate/decelerate in just 45 seconds.
If we're also serious about increasing the frequencies with electrification, then the cars would be single level with more doors and the platforms raised, so passengers could get on and off far more quickly than they can with the current bi-level cars with just two sets of doors. The increased frequency offsets the loss of capacity from eliminating the second level in the cars.
RE: Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road - tomh009 - 04-05-2021
(04-05-2021, 05:33 PM)KevinT Wrote:(04-04-2021, 09:22 PM)tomh009 Wrote: More seriously, what's the acceleration/deceleration time for the current GO rolling stock? How much time would we save with all new rolling stock?
I can't give you the numbers, but I can explain why electrification is such a big deal:
A 12-car GO train with a single engine has 52 axles, only 4 of which (those in the engine) are powered. An electrified 12 car GO train has 48 powered axles, can brake by back-feeding power to the grid rather than burning up brake pads by scrubbing them against metal discs, and eliminates a heavy diesel engine, generator, and fuel tank. Yes, it probably could accelerate/decelerate in just 45 seconds.
If we're also serious about increasing the frequencies with electrification, then the cars would be single level with more doors and the platforms raised, so passengers could get on and off far more quickly than they can with the current bi-level cars with just two sets of doors. The increased frequency offsets the loss of capacity from eliminating the second level in the cars.
I don't disagree with any of that. And it would be lovely.
But, that said, we could have substantially shorter trip times without track electrification and all new rolling stock, which would be a far bigger investment (and a far bigger political hurdle). Track reconditioning, reduced level crossings, shorter dwell times, express service -- these are all things that you would want even with electrification, but which could be implemented 10+ years earlier to make the trip times more competitive.
And I expect that buying 2x the train sets (with single-decker cars) would cost at least 50% more. And require fully twinned tracks. I would love all of that, but we're struggling to get even basic all-day service here ...
RE: GO Transit - kalis0490 - 04-22-2021
I saw some docs saying Pinebush, is likely to be the terminus of a Cambridge guelph go train