(03-07-2022, 09:04 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I mean, the whole point of government is to plan for the future, we KNEW that tighter integration with the GTA was something we were striving for, it was easily foreseeable that fare card unity would be a long term benefit.

I do agree that Presto had more issue then, but it is utterly naive to think that our little town would be able to launch a fare card without issues. To me, the most legitimate argument against presto is not trusting the province.

In any case, it's a moot point now, we'll just have to wait 30 years for an integrated fare card. For me, I literally have nine fare cards in my travel bag now....three family members times GRT, Presto, and London. Where we will be by the end of the month, I expect to have 3 fare cards for the entire country including bike rentals.

(03-06-2022, 04:25 PM)Bytor Wrote: Here is an article that lists the reasons why Presto was not chosen.

Quote:Presto would require the region to agree to certain terms universal to every transit system using it, including passenger classifications and future global fare policies, the region said. Any changes to the standardized system would require every service using Presto - about 12 - to agree.

(03-07-2022, 04:29 PM)tomh009 Wrote:

(03-06-2022, 04:25 PM)Bytor Wrote: Here is an article that lists the reasons why Presto was not chosen.

Thanks. So, one factor was the cost: Presto won't participate in an RFP, and would not provide operating or capital cost estimates, according to the article. That does make it difficult to determine whether Presto's cost is competitive or not.

And for the flexibility:

Quote:Presto would require the region to agree to certain terms universal to every transit system using it, including passenger classifications and future global fare policies, the region said. Any changes to the standardized system would require every service using Presto - about 12 - to agree.

As an example for this, the region would have needed to implement exactly the same affordable transit pass as the other Presto members, rather than being able to tailor it for our region (for example, our ATP provides discounted single fares, Presto does not).

Given the lack of flexibility and the lack of clarity about costs, I suspect that I would have chosen against Presto as well had I been making the decision. Metrolinx has chosen to provide a standardized service, as is their right, but that does mean it may not fit the requirements as well for any given region.

(03-07-2022, 05:00 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:

(03-07-2022, 04:29 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Thanks. So, one factor was the cost: Presto won't participate in an RFP, and would not provide operating or capital cost estimates, according to the article. That does make it difficult to determine whether Presto's cost is competitive or not.

And for the flexibility:

As an example for this, the region would have needed to implement exactly the same affordable transit pass as the other Presto members, rather than being able to tailor it for our region (for example, our ATP provides discounted single fares, Presto does not).

Given the lack of flexibility and the lack of clarity about costs, I suspect that I would have chosen against Presto as well had I been making the decision. Metrolinx has chosen to provide a standardized service, as is their right, but that does mean it may not fit the requirements as well for any given region.

I find this a really uncompelling argument. We are not a special flower. I don't see anything about our region that necessitates some unique fare structure. We may WANT to do things differently, and that's entirely reasonable, but it is entirely based on preference. I don't see that there is anything local here that uniquely REQUIRES or JUSTIFIES us doing something differently.

As for the clarity about costs, I'm not a corporate accountant and I wasn't present for the negotiations. I'm not sure at what point Presto details would have become known, and I completely agree that we should not sign a blank cheque. But I also don't really believe that is the circumstance that would occur. Keep in mind, before the RFP no prices were known at all, we only knew what our estimates was. I am certain that a Presto number could have been known, if we had pursued it.

What is clear to me is that staff did not want presto, and neither did council. Regardless of whether it was for a good reason or bad, or whether long term it was a good decision or bad, it was made based on the wishes of council and staff, and they were not interested in public input on that decision.

(03-07-2022, 05:58 PM)KingandWeber Wrote:

(03-07-2022, 05:00 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I find this a really uncompelling argument. We are not a special flower. I don't see anything about our region that necessitates some unique fare structure. We may WANT to do things differently, and that's entirely reasonable, but it is entirely based on preference. I don't see that there is anything local here that uniquely REQUIRES or JUSTIFIES us doing something differently.

As for the clarity about costs, I'm not a corporate accountant and I wasn't present for the negotiations. I'm not sure at what point Presto details would have become known, and I completely agree that we should not sign a blank cheque. But I also don't really believe that is the circumstance that would occur. Keep in mind, before the RFP no prices were known at all, we only knew what our estimates was. I am certain that a Presto number could have been known, if we had pursued it.

What is clear to me is that staff did not want presto, and neither did council. Regardless of whether it was for a good reason or bad, or whether long term it was a good decision or bad, it was made based on the wishes of council and staff, and they were not interested in public input on that decision.

I might be wrong about this, but I thought the biggest issue was university passes. AFAIK, Presto would not support (and still does not support) any kind of u-pass system like the Region already had in place with the local universities (where there is a hugely discounted subscription, but it requires all students to have to mandatorily subscribe). Financially that would have been a big hit to them and would have required them to break their agreements with the universities. Obviously it could be done, but I suspect the Region was very worried ridership would crater without students having a mandatory pass. Presto also had a ton of bad press at the time as I recall with Toronto essentially allowing anyone to board free at a number of stations for months while issues were resolved (I remember being at such a station). With that all being said, I think we should be thinking about moving to Presto since I do think universality is such a big benefit. I really don't think the decision at the time was so black and white though as others have said.

(03-07-2022, 05:00 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I find this a really uncompelling argument. We are not a special flower. I don't see anything about our region that necessitates some unique fare structure. We may WANT to do things differently, and that's entirely reasonable, but it is entirely based on preference. I don't see that there is anything local here that uniquely REQUIRES or JUSTIFIES us doing something differently.

(03-07-2022, 05:00 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: We may WANT to do things differently, and that's entirely reasonable, but it is entirely based on preference.

(03-07-2022, 09:04 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: In any case, it's a moot point now, we'll just have to wait 30 years for an integrated fare card. For me, I literally have nine fare cards in my travel bag now....three family members times GRT, Presto, and London. Where we will be by the end of the month, I expect to have 3 fare cards for the entire country including bike rentals.

(03-07-2022, 09:33 PM)nms Wrote:

(03-07-2022, 09:04 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: In any case, it's a moot point now, we'll just have to wait 30 years for an integrated fare card. For me, I literally have nine fare cards in my travel bag now....three family members times GRT, Presto, and London. Where we will be by the end of the month, I expect to have 3 fare cards for the entire country including bike rentals.

To be fair, the size of the Netherlands is roughly comparable to the Golden Horseshoe if you stretch it London and up to Orangeville. But yes, we'll get there eventually.

(03-07-2022, 08:41 PM)tomh009 Wrote:

(03-07-2022, 05:00 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I find this a really uncompelling argument. We are not a special flower. I don't see anything about our region that necessitates some unique fare structure. We may WANT to do things differently, and that's entirely reasonable, but it is entirely based on preference. I don't see that there is anything local here that uniquely REQUIRES or JUSTIFIES us doing something differently.

Absolutely it was a choice. There were functions not available on Presto (at least at that time), and both the council and staff believed that those functions were important to the region.

It doesn't mean that this region is a "special flower", as you say, but it does mean that Presto's priorities did not align with our council's priorities. So, the council chose a different path. Whether it turned out the best path in retrospect or not, I do think it was perfectly reasonable grounds for the decision.

(03-08-2022, 09:48 AM)jamincan Wrote: At work, if I approach a vendor and request a quote and they just shrug their shoulders and point to other businesses that use their services and tell me they have a policy of not providing quotes, that "option" is going to end up in the trash. I would have made the same decision as the Region did at that time. It looks to me like Presto took themselves out of the running. I know you cynically believe there was some sort of anti-Presto conspiracy among staff at the Region, Dan, but I have yet to see a shred of evidence to that effect.

(03-07-2022, 06:41 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Presto absolutely does support [u-pass], most places which use Presto have universities, and many of them have subsidized passes, some with the same model as ours.

(03-08-2022, 01:00 PM)taylortbb Wrote:

(03-07-2022, 06:41 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Presto absolutely does support [u-pass], most places which use Presto have universities, and many of them have subsidized passes, some with the same model as ours.

Presto supports this now. It did not support it when the decision was being made, and at that time Presto would not commit to ever supporting it.

Could GRT have run two parallel fare systems? Presto and a custom one for u-pass, mobility plus, etc? Definitely. Would that have had costs associated? Very much so.

There's plenty of reasons we should have gone with Presto, but there's also lots of pretty valid reasons we didn't. You do your argument no favours by making points that are only knowable in hindsight.