(11-13-2020, 11:23 AM)jeffster Wrote:

(11-13-2020, 10:01 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I disagree with the idea that a lockdown has to kill businesses, there is no reason that we cannot provide financial support to businesses that have to shut down.

I also think (and I'm not saying you are saying this, but it seems that our Premier is), that NOT shutting down will not save these businesses either. Even if the foolish people who will keep going out during a wave of the pandemic are enough to keep businesses alive (which I suspect they are not) the fact is, many employees getting sick with COVID will also kill a small business....and possibly the employees and owners literally.

At the end of the day, our economy is about consumer confidence, and the pandemic threatens that. The way to restore it is to give people the belief and trust that the pandemic will be handled well both in terms of health and economics.

Businesses have already shut down. The government can only help so much. There are a lot of business that stay in business by the skin of their teeth.

I don’t think people going out is a major issue, but it is people not wearing protection is a huge part of the problem. If working at a small establishment, and someone comes in without a mask, then the workers are at risk.

On thing for sure, we need to better improve contact tracing.

And I agree the government could do more an many circumstances. I still don’t understand the generosity for people who had very low income jobs (making more on EI or previously CERB than when working) yet failing those that had OK or good paying jobs, and being OK with them losing 50% or more of their income.

Example, if my kid losses his job, his income goes from $400/week to $500/week. If I lose my job, I go from $1,200/week t0 $575/week. Not right.

(11-12-2020, 07:53 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 07:35 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Yes -- with the caveat that these models are based on current situation "without further action".

I think we can be sure there will be some action taken. Whether it will be sufficient remains to be seen.

I don't know, so far they've refused to take any action.  I imagine when hospitals start ordering freezer trucks we may see some movement, but honestly, it's sad how our government seem to have just given up.

It also pisses me off the lack of vision and long term planning this government has. There was zero prioritization to get schools to be safe, although it's turned out better than expected, I don't think this has anything to do with our government...and it's still not great.

But the current situation is lining up to be an extremely sad and depressing Christmas. Aside from those of us who will be locked in our homes, there will be those who are saying goodbye to their loved ones, and even worse, those who ignore the restrictions and kill their loved ones.

If we instead had strong restrictions now (or moderate restrictions earlier) we could probably have gotten to a place where Christmast could be relatively safe. But that would require planning.

(11-13-2020, 12:15 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 07:53 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I don't know, so far they've refused to take any action.  I imagine when hospitals start ordering freezer trucks we may see some movement, but honestly, it's sad how our government seem to have just given up.

It also pisses me off the lack of vision and long term planning this government has. There was zero prioritization to get schools to be safe, although it's turned out better than expected, I don't think this has anything to do with our government...and it's still not great.

But the current situation is lining up to be an extremely sad and depressing Christmas. Aside from those of us who will be locked in our homes, there will be those who are saying goodbye to their loved ones, and even worse, those who ignore the restrictions and kill their loved ones.

If we instead had strong restrictions now (or moderate restrictions earlier) we could probably have gotten to a place where Christmast could be relatively safe. But that would require planning.

I am not sure what you mean about the schools being safe.  Both my daughters in grade 4 and 6 have had no issues at school at all.  There have been no positive cases reported in their school and our family feels safe.  
We cant keep shutting everything down.  Business need to remain solvent, otherwise thew depression that comes out of this will make most people forget about any pandemic..

A number of people on this site are fortunate enough to work from home.  I know many people that cant, they either go to work or no pay.  The government cant afford to keep doling out money to people.  We have to find a balance...  I believe the government has been doing a good job given the situation.

(11-13-2020, 01:54 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote: No we cant afford the CERB....

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canada's budget deficit is on track to hit C$328.5 billion ($245.7 billion) in the 2020/21 fiscal year, including C$226 billion in pandemic relief spending, the country's independent parliamentary budget officer (PBO) said on Tuesday.Sep 29, 2020

Our deficit for 2019 was 14 Billion....And that was already too much.

This is going to have a profound effect on us. 

"Umm...maybe read my later comments...it is a false statement to say people can either work or no pay...we already have EI and we did CERB."

I know many people who dont qualify anymore for EI...  My neighbor is an example.  He can work from home however, his business has dried up.  He does drawings for buildings....  He doesnt qualify because he is self employed.  My wife lost a lot of money because she got CERB instead of proper EI when she was laid off... It hit us hard financially.  Unless you have lived it, dont be so quick to say everything will be ok, we cant afford to shut it down.

(11-13-2020, 02:32 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote: "But you're not arguing for better supports...you're arguing to kill me or my loved ones"  really !!!  yes, your right, I am trying to kill you and your loved ones.  I have news for you, your not likely to die from it....

I have not missed a day of work since this thing began. I am in the public all the time because of my job. When people were ordered to stay home, I was ordered to cancel all my vacation time....  I work in an organization that has 3000 employees who are out in the public face to face 7 days a week in the hottest spot in Canada...Peel Region.  We have had very few cases of employees contracting Covid and in all cases, the contact tracing led back to personal, not work.  If you follow proper protocol, you can safely do things...

(09-30-2020, 05:10 PM)I8Ptomh009 Wrote:

(09-30-2020, 04:28 PM)Coke6pk Wrote: I agree casinos, Dollarama, bars, etc. are not anywhere close to being essential, so we could be shutting down better than we are, but a true lockdown would be impossible.

Many lower-income people use Dollarama for their daily groceries so I think that would be essential. Unless we were to provide some kind of food delivery service to those people.

(11-13-2020, 08:03 PM)jeffster Wrote: Here's the thing guys, things won't get better until two things happen: 1) People start listening to the government and 2) We have a vaccine.

I don't blame "This government" as I think they are dong the best they can. Our federal government has been complete silent on having some sort of national program, and instead, letting provinces decide for themselves, and further, letting local governments decide for themselves.

As for the province and the country itself, we have actually done very well compared to most other countries - the exception are some Asian countries (like China and South Korea). Just look at the USA, be it a liberal or conservative state, they have all suffered almost equally. And again, the issue has been people simple not listening to the science and government authorities.

But as I said, we can do better if people practice things like social distancing, wearing a mask (and not using lame excuses not to), and having a very limited social bubble. Short of that, since this likely won't happen here, since many value their freedom and "rights" over anything else, we'll need to wait for a vaccine.

(11-13-2020, 11:42 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: The government did very little for businesses. They provided CERB instead for folks who lost their jobs. If they had paid small businesses instead, it would have been different.

(11-13-2020, 08:13 PM)panamaniac Wrote: Unless or until the provinces ask for the national government to take the helm, letting the provinces decide for themselves IS the national program.  The national government can inform, encourage, cajole, and transfer funds.  Federalism and the Constitution in action.

(11-13-2020, 03:21 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote: "we are averaging more than a dozen deaths a day in Ontario and rising."  What does this number even mean ?
Statistically Ontario had 109 019 deaths for 2019.  That is 306 deaths per day in Ontario.  the number has been increasing each year, I am sure attributed to aging population.
2016- 97 000
2017- 101 659
2018- 106 762
2019- 109 019

I will be interested to see the year over year number of deaths from last year to this year.  I suspect the number wont be as big of an increase as you would think...

(11-13-2020, 08:03 PM)jeffster Wrote: But as I said, we can do better if people practice things like social distancing, wearing a mask (and not using lame excuses not to), and having a very limited social bubble. Short of that, since this likely won't happen here, since many value their freedom and "rights" over anything else, we'll need to wait for a vaccine.

• 440 cases in Toronto: 15.2 per 100K population
  
• 440 cases in Peel: 44.0 per 100K
  
• 155 cases in York: 14.0 per 100K
  
• 55 cases in Halton: 10.0 per 100K
  
• 43 cases in Hamilton: 9.0 per 100K
  
• 41 cases in Ottawa: 4.1 per 100K
  
• 41 cases in Durham: 6.3 per 100K
  
• 27 cases in Niagara: 6.0 per 100K
  
• 27 cases in Simcoe-Muskoka
  
• 43 cases in Waterloo: 6.6 per 100K (based on provincial reporting)[/color]