(03-14-2023, 10:42 AM)ac3r Wrote: Fitting, given that Victoria is a car sewer.

(03-14-2023, 11:14 AM)SF22 Wrote:

(03-14-2023, 10:42 AM)ac3r Wrote: Fitting, given that Victoria is a car sewer.

I'm about 80% certain that there's another gas station going in, too - at Victoria and Lackner. 800m away from the Shell at Natchez that opened within the last couple years.

I live in eternal hope that Victoria will be chosen for ION Stage 3, and all the zoning will change and it won't be so damn terrible anymore, like how Cambridge put together that new plan to fix Hespeler Rd.

(03-14-2023, 03:16 PM)bravado Wrote:

(03-14-2023, 11:14 AM)SF22 Wrote: I'm about 80% certain that there's another gas station going in, too - at Victoria and Lackner. 800m away from the Shell at Natchez that opened within the last couple years.

I live in eternal hope that Victoria will be chosen for ION Stage 3, and all the zoning will change and it won't be so damn terrible anymore, like how Cambridge put together that new plan to fix Hespeler Rd.

I have so many questions for whoever is investing in new gas stations in 2023

(03-15-2023, 09:08 AM)SF22 Wrote:

(03-14-2023, 03:16 PM)bravado Wrote: I have so many questions for whoever is investing in new gas stations in 2023

Right? I'm waiting for the first day that we see something like a 'charging station' - a place where you can park your electric car for 30m, plug into a charger, and then have a seat at the attached restaurant/cafe while you wait. Sort of like a truck stop, but for SUVs. I honestly believe we'll start seeing a new industry like that pop up (eventually) to replace gas stations that can no longer stay profitable.

(03-15-2023, 09:25 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:

(03-15-2023, 09:08 AM)SF22 Wrote: Right? I'm waiting for the first day that we see something like a 'charging station' - a place where you can park your electric car for 30m, plug into a charger, and then have a seat at the attached restaurant/cafe while you wait. Sort of like a truck stop, but for SUVs. I honestly believe we'll start seeing a new industry like that pop up (eventually) to replace gas stations that can no longer stay profitable.

Besides the addition of charging infrastructure, how does this differ from existing rest stops?

I think gas stations on the highway will actually survive pretty well with EVs, because they are exactly the places where people will need to charge, and they are a captive location where people who are stuck there for 20-30 minutes can go spend on some food.

Where as in city stations will almost certainly be mostly gone in 15-20 years. Even if people needed to charge in town (which should rarely be the case, they'll charge at home or maybe their destination) they can plug in at a charger, but then are not captive...they're not forced to stay at the gas station and eat gas station food...they can go anywhere in the city.

(03-15-2023, 09:57 AM)tomh009 Wrote:

(03-15-2023, 09:25 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Besides the addition of charging infrastructure, how does this differ from existing rest stops?

I think gas stations on the highway will actually survive pretty well with EVs, because they are exactly the places where people will need to charge, and they are a captive location where people who are stuck there for 20-30 minutes can go spend on some food.

Where as in city stations will almost certainly be mostly gone in 15-20 years. Even if people needed to charge in town (which should rarely be the case, they'll charge at home or maybe their destination) they can plug in at a charger, but then are not captive...they're not forced to stay at the gas station and eat gas station food...they can go anywhere in the city.

A destination charger might be only a level 2, whereas a gas/charging station might offer something like 500 kW rapid charging, so there is a case for that. And not everyone will have charging capability at home. Not all multi-residential buildings will have it, and even in single-residential, you may not have enough charging for all your vehicles.

Building a new station on Victoria St can still make sense because it'll take decades for ICE vehicles to disappear (EV market share is still less than 10% and cars last much longer than 10 years), especially if it's designed to be able to transition to fast charging in the future (maybe even with an option to do it now).

(03-15-2023, 10:19 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:

(03-15-2023, 09:57 AM)tomh009 Wrote: A destination charger might be only a level 2, whereas a gas/charging station might offer something like 500 kW rapid charging, so there is a case for that. And not everyone will have charging capability at home. Not all multi-residential buildings will have it, and even in single-residential, you may not have enough charging for all your vehicles.

Building a new station on Victoria St can still make sense because it'll take decades for ICE vehicles to disappear (EV market share is still less than 10% and cars last much longer than 10 years), especially if it's designed to be able to transition to fast charging in the future (maybe even with an option to do it now).

They last "a little" longer than 10 years...12 years is a common average livespan AFAIK.

For the economics of running a gas station, like I said, 15-20 years seems a reasonable time frame. I have no idea what the economic payback period of building a gas station is, but if it's any longer than 15-20 years it would seem to be a risky investment.

As for charging stations, I do know about DC fast charging, but I don't see the purpose of it within cities. Travel within cities is within the range of an EV, so you're going to charge at home or your destination. And you're at your destination for a longer time, so you don't need fast charging. Obviously as I mentioned charging stations on the highway absolutely make sense.

As for charging at home...I don't think anyone who cannot charge at home will be motivated to own an EV...it's quickly going to become a necessity and buildings are going to roll it out, DC fast charging will never be fast enough for bi-weekly charges. There are easy and proven solutions to destination charging. Where I live now, very few people have their own driveway, but there are municipal EV chargers all over and people just park their EVs at the municipal chargers in public spaces.

(03-15-2023, 10:19 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: As for charging at home...I don't think anyone who cannot charge at home will be motivated to own an EV...it's quickly going to become a necessity and buildings are going to roll it out, DC fast charging will never be fast enough for bi-weekly charges. There are easy and proven solutions to destination charging. Where I live now, very few people have their own driveway, but there are municipal EV chargers all over and people just park their EVs at the municipal chargers in public spaces.

(03-15-2023, 02:38 PM)tomh009 Wrote:

(03-15-2023, 10:19 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: As for charging at home...I don't think anyone who cannot charge at home will be motivated to own an EV...it's quickly going to become a necessity and buildings are going to roll it out, DC fast charging will never be fast enough for bi-weekly charges. There are easy and proven solutions to destination charging. Where I live now, very few people have their own driveway, but there are municipal EV chargers all over and people just park their EVs at the municipal chargers in public spaces.

Will there be municipal chargers in Canada? Could be, but I think that's far from guaranteed. And if the EV/charger ratio is too high, charging stations will have an opportunity. Even in Netherlands, the EVs are still a tiny portion of the car population so they will need far more chargers 10 years from now. And here governments are considerably more allergic to such public investment.